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North Korean Defector; Russia Blasts U.S. on North Korea; Op-Ed Says Congress Must Probe Trump; London Stations Reopen, No Evidence of Shots Fired; Egypt Mosque Attack: 235 Dead, Attackers Shot at Ambulances; Source: Flynn's Lawyers Stop Working with Trump's Team; Senator Franken's New Apology: "I Crossed A Line". Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired November 24, 2017 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:00:12] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: Hello. I'm Jim Sciutto, in for Wolf Blitzer. And I want to welcome viewers here in the U.S. and around the world.

A quick update on our breaking news: London police are investigating an incident in the center of the city. Police responded to a number of reports of shots fired on Oxford Street and the underground station at Oxford Circus.

Eyewitnesses say that they heard people screaming and then running from the tube station there. Oxford Circus tube is one of the busiest of the city. The area full of shops, cafes, office buildings, especially during the Black Friday holiday shopping time.

Let's bring in CNN's Phil Black in London.

Phil, I understand now that police are finding no evidence of an attack there, but it really shows the level of alert there on, the reaction they had to this.

PHIL BLACK, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: In danger (ph), that's right. So, reports of shot fired, they say multiple reports both on the street level at Oxford Street itself, within the Oxford Circus underground station as well. They say, they've responded they've treated it as a potential terror incident. But so far, they say they have found no evidence of casualties, no evidence of shots being fired, no casualties except for one woman who experienced minor injuries as she was fleeing the underground station itself.

But if you look behind me, you get a sense of just how seriously they've taken this. This is, as you've been saying, an incredibly busy area, particularly on a Friday night, especially so tonight. I have not seen this area so busy for a very, very long time. That was only a short time ago and now, the streets behind us, they are empty.

We've seen an ongoing orderly effort to evacuate people from this area but as you say, as witnesses have been telling us they have absolutely been moments of panic and fear stampede-like moments as people have fled. Now, what triggered this initially, we don't know. We've spoken to some of the people that that did flee the area. We asked them why they were running. They said because they saw other people running.

It's one of those situations where there were so many people here that the fear essentially sort of spread through the wave of the crowd and it's been ongoing and there have been other incidents start, sudden noises, these sorts of things, have sparked that degree, that fear and in those very sudden efforts to escape the area as quickly as possible. It shows how seriously the police have treated this. They have plans obviously in place for this particular area, it's always busy it's always considered a potential threat in a city that has known terrorism as it has just this year as recently as it has done and tonight, they put those plans into effect very, very quickly. And we saw a very efficient clearing of this area and the police were clearly taking this incredibly seriously.

But the latest official statements from them indicate that they had not found anything so far to really warrant the degree of fear and panic that we've been witnessing here on the streets of central London tonight, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, certainly a relief to see that a relief to see how quickly the police can respond to even the sign of a possible incident.

Phil Black, on the streets there for us in London.

In Egypt, a day of prayers there turned deadly. At least 235 people killed, another 109 injured in an attack on a mosque in the North Sinai. As the death toll there rises, this horrible attack becoming one of the deadliest ever on civilians in that area.

President Trump is condemning the attack, tweeting, quote: The world cannot tolerate terrorism. We must defeat them militarily and discredit the extremist ideology that forms the basis of their existence.

CNN international correspondent Ian Lee has covered the region extensively. He joins us now.

Ian, this attack seems particularly brutal, reports that the people inside the mosque were drawn outside by a small explosion and then the shooting started. Tell us how it went down.

IAN LEE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, this is a well- coordinated attack, Jim. Just hearing from eyewitnesses, you're right, we're told that there were two small explosions that took place outside the mosque to cause panic for people to leave the mosque, and that's when gunmen opened fire on the people, and the those who remained inside the mosque, those militants then went inside and executed them. And so far, 235 people have been killed.

And were also told the ambulances that were trying to get there to ferry away the injured and the dead, they were also ambushed by the militants. And we're told that that ambulances couldn't get there until security forces had come in and secured the area.

Now, so far, Jim, no one has claimed responsibility, but this bears all the hallmarks of an ISIS attack, and we've been following the terrorist organization in the northern part of the Sinai. This is something that they have carried out before attacks like this, and Egypt's president says that the retribution will be brutal.

[13:05:03] We're hearing that Egypt's military and air force is already combing the area, looking for these militants. But this underscores the continuing battle that Egypt is facing against ISIS and against extremism in the northern part of Sinai and really in other parts of the country as well, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And the continuing threat that ISIS can pose even as they lose their home base in Iraq and Syria. Ian Lee on the ground for us there, thanks very much.

Now here to the Russia investigation where Michael Flynn's lawyers have stopped talking with Donald Trump's lawyers. That raising the question of whether Flynn is talking with the special counsel about a possible plea deal.

Flynn was fired as President Trump's national security adviser, you may remember, following false statements about his conversations with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. Since then, he's been under further legal scrutiny for his business dealings overseas.

CNN senior White House correspondent Jeff Zeleny, he joins us now from West Palm Beach, Florida, near where the president is once again spending the holiday, the Thanksgiving holiday.

Jeff, any reaction from President Trump's legal team to the Flynn developments.

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jim, there's no question that General Flynn certainly was the beginning of much of this Russian investigation, as you said his firing really touched off a series of events that has been going on for the last 11 months or so.

But the president's our lawyers are suggesting that this doesn't necessarily mean that General Flynn is cooperating with Bob Mueller, the special counsel of course in this investigation. Jay Sekulow, who's one of the president's lawyers, he said this, Jim. He said it's not entirely unexpected. It shouldn't be seen as an indication of cooperation. He said no one should draw the conclusion that this means anything about General Flynn cooperating.

But the reality here, Jim, is that as this investigation moves along and indeed many close to it believes it is coming to a head here with General Flynn, you know, the next up, if you will, after a Paul Manafort, after a Rick Gates, those other two campaign advisers who were indicted a month ago that General Flynn is the next up here.

So, the fact that the lawyers are no longer talking certainly raises questions of him cooperating and most people close to this believe that in the next week or two, there will be some type of either charge or announcement about General Flynn involving this whole Russia investigation, Jim. SCIUTTO: Now, Jeff Zeleny, you would expect the White House. You certainly would expect White House lawyers to downplay the significant of the significance of this, but fact is the president former campaign chairman is now under arrest, I mean, will you -- has been arrested for a -- indicted rather for crimes, and here you have his national security adviser here, with signals at least that he's talking to the special counsel. When you press people inside of the White House, do they let on to more nervousness than you're hearing in the public statement from the White House lawyer?

ZELENY: Not nervousness that they weren't expecting, but nervousness that this is perhaps coming to a head here, I mean, and the difference between General Flynn I think we shouldn't point out, he had a bird's- eye view to the early days of the Trump administration, in fact a ringside seat to much of the sort of thinking that candidate Trump had with Vladimir Putin.

It was General Flynn who had an existing relationship with Russia and urged the president to have a closer relationship. So, the nervousness I sense is that General Flynn is the closest to the inner circle of anyone so far who would be Cooperating we're in discussions with a Bob Mueller's office here.

So, certainly not unexpected. Everyone knew that General Flynn was at the center of this, you know, potential investigation. And again, it is still a question. Was there collusion between the Trump campaign and the Kremlin? But, of course, General Flynn is one of the people who investigators believe may have answers to that. So, certainly as this comes to another chapter in this, General Flynn is at the center of what the next shoe to drop if one drops at all, Jim.

Jeff Zeleny, traveling with the president, thanks very much.

Well, if Michael Flynn is playing "let's make a deal" with the special counsel special investigation of Robert Mueller, that could have extreme legal and political implications.

Joining me now to talk about this, CNN political analyst Jackie Kucinich and CNN legal analyst Michael Zeldin.

Michael, if I could begin with you -- what's your take as a lawyer on Flynn's lawyers no longer sharing information with the Trump legal team? How significant?

MICHAEL ZELDIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's significant because typically when counsel cooperate that way, it means they have a mutuality of interest. Their client's interests align. When someone backs out of that mutual agreement, it means that their interests no longer align, which in this case most likely means that either Flynn is cooperating or trying to negotiate a plea agreement for himself and probably his son.

SCIUTTO: Jackie, let's be frank here. I mean, you can make the most confident statement as the president's lawyer as you like, but you have the president's former campaign chairman, Manafort, indicted, the president's former deputy campaign chairman Rick Gates indicted, both facing significant -- we're not talking, you know, misdemeanors here, 10, 15 years sentences here if convicted.

[13:10:10] Now, you have his former national security adviser it appears -- certainly under investigation and it appears possibly in talks with the special counsel. What is the real level of nervousness inside the Trump administration?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think we've got to keep an eye on the president himself, because when the president is nervous or angry, he tweets about it, no matter what his advisors do, no matter what they say --

SCIUTTO: The window into his soul, yes.

KUCINICH: It really -- it really is, and so, I think we should be why -- I mean, as we always do, keep an eye on that Twitter feed and see what the -- how far the White House goes to try to distance themselves. We saw with Paul Manafort, all of a sudden, Paul Manafort was just some guy who was in the campaign, I'm paraphrasing.

SCIUTTO: A minor player, yes.

KUCINICH: A minor player, when we know that isn't factually accurate. So, I think it remains to be seen right now, but we will have our answer because it never really stays quiet very long.

SCIUTTO: I mean they said the same about George Papadopoulos, right?

KUCINICH: Right.

SCIUTTO: Who pled guilty. They said, well, he was no one knew who he was, but there was meant much proof of the fact that he had roles and conversations for a significant length of time.

KUCINICH: Exactly.

SCIUTTO: But, Michael, when you're looking from where you are, this sharing of information among legal teams an investigation like, the Russia investigation, how common is that? I mean, you say it works when your interests are aligned, when they are no longer aligned, it doesn't work. So, what should we expect to happen next?

ZELDIN: So, I think Flynn has got a couple of things that he has that is relevant to Mueller. First is he may have information relevant to the core issue of cooperation between the Trump campaign and Russia and Russian proxies, WikiLeaks in particular. He may also know about whether or not the president spoke to Comey about his investigation. So, it could be about testifies president said back off (AUDIO GAP)

SCIUTTO: Sorry, we're losing -- a slight audio problem there, we're having a little trouble. We're going to try to correct that.

But let me go to Jackie just while we were correct the audio problems with Michael Zeldin there. I mean, to his point though, you have a lot of pressure at a minimum surrounding this administration now, and this is frankly the way lawyers often operate, right? I mean, you find vulnerabilities and you get what you can get first

then you put pressure on them and try to put pressure on to the next -- on to the next one.

KUCINICH: Right.

SCIUTTO: That appears to be what Robert Mueller is doing here.

KUCINICH: Well, absolutely, that's why you see, Michael Flynn's son being put into the conversation, because his son was the chief of staff to Michael Flynn in his private consulting group. It's interesting. They're also looking at things that did not involve the Trump campaign much like they did with Manafort. Some of the trips that Michael Flynn took to Russia, some of the things he forgot to report or didn't report when he was in the administration.

So, they are. They're finding these pressure points in order to increase the likelihood that someone like Michael Flynn might talk about something else perhaps.

SCIUTTO: Someone has an interest in talking about it, right?

KUCINICH: Right.

SCIUTTO: It's in exchange for you know shorter sentence, et cetera.

Jackie Kucinich, Michael Zeldin, before we lost your audio -- thanks very much.

Coming up, North Korea making dramatic moves along its border, and against its own soldiers, after one of them successfully escaped in really just a daring run for his life.

Plus, a possible new rift between Secretary of State Rex Tillerson and the White House as officials say that he is snubbing Ivanka Trump. We'll be back with more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:18:02] SCIUTTO: Welcome back. And now to North Korea, where an interesting picture has emerged. North Korean soldiers digging a trench at the very spot where a defector crossed into South Korea last week. You may remember those dramatic pictures.

Let's discuss this with CNN global affairs analyst Aaron David Miller, who's with the Woodrow Wilson Center, international center, here in Washington.

Aaron, looking at this -- I mean, first of all, it was just dramatic picture as this soldier runs out of North Korea, somehow surviving in this fuselage of gunfire. As North Korea reacts now, digging this trench, they've apparently replaced all the soldiers who were on the border there, what does that tell you about the state of play?

AARON DAVID MILLER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: You know, this one defection, I think, speaks loudly about the status of economic, even mental (ph) conditions within the hermit kingdom. When the docs opened this guy up, they found these parasites, which is a pretty clear reflection of sanitary and nutritional issues with respect to North Korea.

Look, blocking a trench -- and you say that the North Korean centuries were replaced, hopefully -- hopefully their sake they weren't executed -- but it shows a degree of sensitivity and venerability. It is a policed state, but there's a high degree of sensitivity on the part of Kim Jong-un, KJU, to anything that remotely suggests a degree of unhappiness, let alone a willingness of an individual soldier to defect to the South, which, in the end, Jim, I think is the real threat that South Korea poses to the North.

Every day North Koreans look in the mirror and what they see is a vibrant, South Korean economy with all of the things, materially and psychologically, that they aspire to and they can't have them.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

I want you to listen to what this North Korean defector said about the conditions inside the country. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Conditions were harsh. Everyone was hungry, even the soldiers, he says. The U.N. is sending rice and fertilizer and it all goes to the ranking officials. There are many soldiers who also die from disease because they're not given medical treatment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[13:20:10] SCIUTTO: The understanding had been that the soldiers, particularly those stationed at the border, got the cushiest treatment, the best food, resources, et cetera. But it seems that the soldiers not getting that anymore. And I wonder if that's a sign of weakness?

MILLER: Well, it could be a sign that sanctions are having an impact. The regime has made a decision that it's got to reserve most of the benefits for the elites and those who actually physically protect the president. But it's also a sign, I think, Jim, of the reality that this regime is prepared to allow its people to suffer and starve and die in an effort to consolidate and maintain power. And that's a serious problem when you're trying to bring leverage against a regime that's prepared to do that to its own public.

SCIUTTO: Yes, it's a sad reality.

I want to speak about Russian's involvement. Russia's foreign minister, Sergey Lavrov, he's accusing the U.S. of pumping weapons into Japan and South Korea, calling it a disproportionate response to North Korea. In effect, shifting the blame from North Korea to the U.S. How significant is Russia's stance on this?

MILLER: I mean, you know, Lavrov and Putin have been complaining for the last couple of years with respect to what they consider to be our reckless strategy towards North Korea. And we do have a certain annoying tendency to assume that everybody sees the world the way we do.

The reality is that China and Russia do not see North Korea as the primary threat. The Chinese fear us and a united Korea with Japan and the United States and South Korea encroaching on their borders far more than they do KJU's nukes. And I think the Russian's basically see KJU as a kind of victim of an international system, which like Pyongyang has also imposed sanctions on Vladimir Putin. So bottom line, whatever the president says, it's really going to be hard to enlist China and Russia as key players in bringing the kind of leverage that it would be required to force Kim -- let -- forget giving up his nukes, but force him into a negotiation.

SCIUTTO: Aaron David Miller, thanks, as always.

MILLER: Thank you, Jim. Happy Thanksgiving.

SCIUTTO: Good to have you on. To you as well.

The president seems to only admit that he's playing golf when he name drops his partners. Why he is teaming up with Tiger Woods today.

Plus, Senator Al Franken delivering a new message, the first since more women have come forward saying that he groped them. The details on that just ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:04] SCIUTTO: Senator Al Franken served up a little humble pie with his Thanksgiving dinner. The embattled senator pinned a message to Minnesotans in response to allegations that he sexually harassed at least two women. It reads like this. I'm a warm person. I hug people. I've learned from recent stories that in some of those encountered I crossed a line for some women and I know that any number is too many. I feel terribly that I made some women feel badly and for that I am so sorry and I want to make sure that never happens again.

While Franken apologizes, Alabama Senate Candidate Roy Moore is denying any wrong-doing, even calling the allegations for multiple women against him part of, quote, a spiritual war. Moore faces sexual assault allegations from several women, including two that were 16 years old or younger at the time. Moore denies he did anything wrong. In fact, he says that he's never even met those women.

On FaceBook he posted this Thanksgiving message to supporters saying, quote, we are in the thick of the toughest spiritual and political battle of our lives and we cannot thank you enough for your constant outpouring of support and love.

Well, voters in Alabama will pass judgment on Roy Moore next month. Congress may ultimately pass judgment with ethics investigations for both Senator Franken and Congressman John Conyers, also accused. But "The Washington Post" says the same needs to be done for President Trump, who has defended Moore and attacked Franken. Here is part of "The Washington Post" op-ed. A kind of judgment day

has arrived for men who thought they had gotten away with their misdeeds. If Congress is going to probe the conduct of members, such as Conyers and Franken, it must also investigate the multiple, believable allegations of sexual misconduct against Trump. If they are true, the president must be censured.

Here with me now is CNN contributor David Fahrenthold, CNN politics senior writer Juana Summers, and senior congressional correspondent for CNN, Sunlen Serfaty.

Sunlen, a bold call from "The Washington Post." Realistically, Republican-controlled Congress, what are the chances this happens?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I don't think it's very realistic at all.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SERFATY: The House and Senate, Republican controlled, but I do think that this has clearly been the undercurrent of this story as we're talking about sexual harassment allegations, not just in the entertainment and news industry, but on Capitol Hill. And this has been the undercurrent. But the fact that the president has multiple allegations about him as well. Of course voters knew that going into when they elected Donald Trump. But that's why it makes it all the more awkward when you hear President Trump talking about someone like Judge Moore.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SERFATY: He himself has been faced with these own allegations.

SCIUTTO: A gentle word.

Juana, the -- you have Franken, Conyers, you have other allegations, concerns about others on Capitol Hill. Is there fear on Capitol Hill of this expanding to other sitting members of Congress?

JUANA SUMMERS, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER: I think there absolutely is. As Sunlen and I and our colleagues have reported, and other organizations are as well, there is a concern that there are these more stories. And just looking at the numbers alone tells you that that's likely true.

[13:30:00] As we've reported, the Office of Compliance has, over the last two decades, had $17 million in settlements. That's not just sexual harassment. It's a number of workplace disputes. But that's a big number.