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Winfrey Presidential Run; Winfrey and Trump on Politics in Past; Trump Willing to Meet with Mueller. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired January 8, 2018 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, I'm Wolf Blitzer. It's 1:00 p.m. here in Washington, 6:00 p.m. in London, 3:00 a.m. Tuesday in Seoul. Wherever you're watching from around the world, thanks very much for joining us.

A stable genius and, like, really smart. President Trump on the defense right now as new questions surface about his fitness for office and his interest in his job.

Face-to-face. New signs that the president may be closer to sitting down with the special counsel, Robert Mueller. But what are the parameters?

And sources close to Oprah Winfrey say she's actively thinking about a presidential run. So, what are her chances against President Trump in 2020?

All that coming up.

Let's start with President Trump. He hits the road this hour after a weekend spent defending his mental fitness for office.

Administration officials are trying to focus in on their agenda but they're also dealing with an explosive new book that raises questions about the president's mental stability.

In response, the president tweeted this. Actually, throughout my life, my two greatest assets have been mental stability and being, like, really smart. Crooked Hillary Clinton also played these parts very hard and, as everyone knows, went down in flames.

I went from very successful businessman, to top T.V. star, to president of the United States on my first try. I think that would qualify as not smart, but genius. And a very stable genius at that.

White House Correspondent Abby Phillip is joining us now live from the north lawn of the White House. Abby, so, what do we expect to hear from the president today?

ABBY PHILLIP, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Wolf. Well, President Trump is on his way to Tennessee where he's going to be speaking in front of the American Farm Bureau's annual convention. And this is an opportunity for this White House and for the president to pivot back to policy, talking a little bit about some of the things that he's been most proud of in the first term, particularly this tax bill.

Now, according to some excerpts the White House just sent out, the president's going to devote a good chunk of his speech to talking about this bill and the benefits in there for rural Americans.

But there's also going to be an effort to pivot toward the future, some more policy efforts that they're going to be pushing on infrastructure, especially some of the aspects of that proposal that might impact rural Americans.

But, as you mentioned, this book is really overshadowing so much of that. And with the president going out there into the country, he's going to be in front of a podium where he has the opportunity to say whatever he wants.

We'll be watching to see if he is going to go off script and talk about some of this controversy that's really been overshadowing his White House over the last 72 hours -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Yes, I wouldn't be surprised if he does but we'll see.

Steve Bannon, as you know, Abby, is expressing regret for not responding sooner to comments in the book that were attributed to him. He says his comment, for example, calling that June 2016 Trump Tower meeting in New York treasonous.

He says it was directed at Paul Manafort who was the campaign chairman, not Donald Trump Jr. Is that helping to mend the rift, and an explosive rift, between Bannon and the president?

PHILLIP: Well, the president and Bannon are clearly at odds over the last couple of days.

And Bannon's statement came only after a White House adviser, Steven Miller, someone who, in the past, had been allied with Bannon on some policy issues, came out on television and really slammed him for those comments in the book.

Now, the president is clearly not backing down here. He has sent his aides out there to not just criticize the author, Michael Wolff, but Bannon personally.

And also, we're hearing from White House sources -- a source inside the White House tells CNN that the president views Bannon's comments and his mea culpa as too little, too late -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Abby Phillip over at the White House for us. Thanks very much.

The author of that new anti-Trump book says the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is a hot topic in the west wing. Here's how Michael Wolff describes the conversations. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL WOLFF, AUTHOR, "FIRE AND FURY": There are many moments in which the 25th Amendment has come up. The 25th Amendment in which gives the cabinet the ability to remove the president.

And they don't say -- they don't say the cabinet is going to remove the president. But they do say things like, this is -- well, this is a little 25th Amendment here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: The section of the amendment Wolff refers to basically says this. Whenever the vice president of the United States and the majority of the executive departments, the cabinet, declare that the president is, quote "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office," close quote, the vice president immediately becomes acting president.

That's the 25th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Let's bring in our panel to discuss. We have our CNN Political Analyst Jackie Kucinich with us; A.B. Stoddard Associate Editor and Columnist for RealClearPolitics; and CNN's Chief Political Analyst Gloria Borger.

The talk of the 25th Amendment, it seems like an extremely high hurdle.

[13:05:02] GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, it is a high hurdle. Because, of course, the president could also challenge the cabinet and the vice president and go to Congress. And then, it would take two-thirds of each House.

So, I think what I'm -- what I'm hearing Michael Wolff say is that maybe that's code word for things are going a little crazy around here. And maybe that it wasn't serious talk.

I mean, you know, it seems to me that it's one thing to talk about what's going on with the special counsel, and Mueller, and questions of impeachment, et cetera. We'll have to let all of that play out, of course.

But the 25th Amendment, I think the bar is way high and was really written for when somebody is completely incapacitated or ill.

BLITZER: Yes. A.B., how do you see it?

A.B. STODDARD, ASSOCIATE EDITOR AND COLUMNIST, REALCLEARPOLITICS: I agree. I think that it's the, kind of, thing that -- we've heard about the 25th Amendment since Trump was elected. He is -- his behavior has often been alarming enough, the people have written about what it would require.

It is extreme, as Gloria describes. and you have to be, really, out of it. And the idea that he could contest it, makes it, sort of, an impossible thing to mount anyway.

But I think that this would have been reported earlier. We've -- look at the reporting from "The New York Times" alone on the Trump administration. Look at the things that the staff in desperation has leaked on this president.

I think if they were talking about the 25th Amendment, we would have known it by now. Michael Wolff has too many critics at his work. I'm not saying everything in this book is not true, but it's one more thing that really looks like it's questionable.

BLITZER: You know, Jackie, it's interesting because in the tweet responding to questions about his mental fitness, the president described himself, and we just heard it, but I'll repeat it, like, really, really smart and a very stable genius.

Is that kind of talk, that kind of tweeting, is it helping or hurt his position.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: You know, I think with people who don't like the president, they point to that and say, this is what we're talking about.

And with those that are a little nervous about this president or like this president, they're, kind of, dismissing it as, well, another tweet.

And, yet, what this whole 25th Amendment, politically, is doing is giving these Democrats who have been very vocal about this, something else to talk about, something else to point to.

And because they're have meetings on the Hill with Democrats and psychiatrists who are talking about the president's mental state. It's bringing back up that talking point. And to those -- it's giving fodder to those who have already raised this as a concern.

BORGER: But I think the issue -- you know, and in a way, maybe the Democrats are undermining themselves with, kind of, an overreach.

I mean, I think the legitimate question is, what's Bob Mueller going to find out? What's the president's competency? What's his level of involvement, his curiosity, et cetera, et cetera? I mean, those are issues that can be raised in a political environment. And they're very, sort of, coagent issues.

KUCINICH: Right.

BORGER: But this other thing, I think, that, you know, if you go too far into this, you may be undermining your own political points.

BLITZER: You know, it's interesting. Senator Bob Corker of Tennessee, he's going to be flying this afternoon, from Washington aboard Air Force One, down to Nashville for the president's remarks later today. He's been very critical of the president.

But, apparently, he's trying to make nice with the president right now because of legislative concerns. He's got some critically important issues he wants to see enacted.

STODDARD: Right. I think that it's just been a really interesting journey to watch Republicans, throughout 2015 when they had the best bench ever, into 2016 when Donald Trump prevailed over every other candidate in the primary, into his nomination of his presidency.

Many of them, after the "Access Hollywood" tape backing away from him, saying, I'll never do this. Three weeks later saying, I'm endorsing the nominee of my party again.

You see Senator Lindsey Graham. He said terrible things about this president. Now, he's his best chum. And, you know, he's advising him on policy.

I think they bob and weave in and out, depending on what they feel that is needed at that moment. And if there is upcoming policy that is important to the country, they're going to subjugate their real feelings, that they've already told reporters on the record, and get back in his good graces.

BLITZER: Remember all the harsh words during the campaign between the president and Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz? They're working closely with the president right now on several issues close to their hearts.

KUCINICH: Right, as a means to an end, at this point. Holding onto their grievances against the president isn't going to get the issues that they think are most important and are critical to their reelect, in the case of Senator Cruz.

They need that. They need his support. And if he is against them, that's not going to help them at home, particularly in these states that have a high amount of support for the president.

BORGER: You know, Macchia-Velian is a political term of art.

KUCINICH: Right, right.

BORGER: And this is what -- you know, this is what they are doing. You know, they're using him, to a great degree, to get done what they -- what they want to get done.

You know, you can argue all you want that they've been on both sides, et cetera, et cetera. But I think some of them have -- are of the opinion that he's the best vehicle they've got right now, so they're going to -- they're going to use him.

[13:10:02] BLITZER: And can they work on a deal, A.B., that will allow the dreamers, 700,000 or so, to stay here, the DACA agreement that they're working on. The president says he supports that, but he wants a commitment from the Democrats to build a wall along the U.S.- Mexico border.

STODDARD: And he's not going to get that.

There is an actual, real bipartisan heavy lifting on this issue since this summer. Very conservative Republicans working with Democrats trying to get to something.

The president said to Nancy and Chuck months ago that he wanted something. He did not insist on a wall. He told Republicans last week in private he's not insisting on a physical wall.

But he keeps coming out and throwing this wrench into the fire to make this more difficult. The idea that he's going to put 200,000 Salvadorians up to the threat of deportation right now is only going to make the Democrats dig in harder and try to make this a shutdown fight on the 19th.

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes, we talk a lot about the Republican base and the pressures of the Republican's base by them. The Democrats are also receiving a lot of pressure from their base now, particularly on the DACA issue.

And what they're saying is, if you cave on this, don't call us. They're really, really putting the pressure on them right now.

BLITZER: And he's sinking $18 billion to build that wall along the U.S.-Mexico border in this new budget.

BORGER: And, you know, you want to talk about Republicans who have flipped and flopped on this. Look at Lindsey Graham. He spent, what, most of the last decade working on some kind of immigration reform.

Now, perhaps, he's trying to work with the president to craft something that he can support. He's been working a lot of his career on this.

KUCINICH: He had said (ph) as much yesterday. That's one of the reasons he is -- he has gotten closer to the presidents.

BLITZER: He wants U.S. taxpayers to put up the $18 billion. But he does say that, in some form, Mexico will eventually wind up paying for it. Mexico says that's not going to happen.

STODDARD: We'll see.

BLITZER: Stand by.

Sources tell CNN, Oprah Winfrey is actively thinking about a presidential run in 2020. We're going to discuss her chances. How Republicans would react.

Also, is President Trump closer to meeting face-to-face with Robert Mueller? There are new signs of a potential major development in the Russia investigation.

And one senator on the Judiciary Committee predicting more indictments and convictions are coming and says it's possible, he says, Donald Trump Jr. and Jared Kushner will be involved.

[13:12:45]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) [13:16:20] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Oprah Winfrey for president of the United States? Two of Winfrey's close friends tell CNN she is, quote, actively thinking about a possible 2020 White House run. Buzz of her presidential prospects really took off after Oprah Winfrey's powerful speech last night at the Golden Globe Awards. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRAH WINFREY: So I want all the girls watching here and now to know that a new day is on the horizon! And when that new day finally dawns, it will be because of a lot of magnificent women, many of whom are right here in this room tonight, and some pretty phenomenal men fighting hard to make sure that they become the leaders who take us to the time when nobody ever has to say "me too" again.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: All right, joining us now to discuss this and more, CNN contributor Joshua Dubois. He's also a former White House adviser to President Obama on faith, race and community partnerships. Our chief political analyst Gloria Borger is with us as well.

What's your reaction to this idea, Gloria?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, as she said, a new day is on the horizon and everybody kind of perked up and was thinking, well, is that just in regard to women and the issue of sexual harassment and assault or is that in regard to her own political ambitions? And, you know, she said and laughed it off in the past, et cetera, et cetera. But now it seems to be a more -- a more serious issue.

She's clearly a powerful speaker. She clearly has a ready-made constituency, which Republicans would, of course, run against, because it's Hollywood. But I think it stretches beyond that.

And after Donald Trump, why would we think that only people with political experience with elective office should run for president?

BLITZER: Her longtime partner, Joshua, Stedman Graham, is quoted in "The Los Angeles Times" as saying, it's up to the people. She would absolutely do it.

The actress Merrill Streep told "The Washington Post," she launched a rocket tonight. I want her to run for president. I don't think she had any intention of declaring, but now she doesn't have a choice.

You know Oprah Winfrey. What do you think?

JOSHUA DUBOIS, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, she's certainly one of the most inspirational figures on the global stage today and she's a uniter and we need a uniter right now. I mean there are African-Americans in Chicago and Latinos in California and conservative white women in Georgia that don't have a ton in common. But one thing they do have in common is a love for Oprah Winfrey. So she's able to bring together constituencies that wouldn't necessarily otherwise talk with each other.

Now, the speech was very much in line with her entire career. She was talking about bringing in voices from the margin. People that -- giving voice to the voiceless. And so I didn't necessarily consider it a political speech, but she certainly has the platform to do that if she chooses.

BLITZER: Years ago, listen to what Donald Trump, a private citizen at the time, told Larry King here on CNN about Oprah Winfrey potentially being a running mate. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY KING, CNN: Do you have a vice presidential candidate in mind?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I really haven't gotten quite there yet. I guess --

KING: (INAUDIBLE) just you would --

TRUMP: I guess Oprah. I love Oprah. Oprah would ways be my first choice.

Oprah would be great. I'd love to have Oprah. I think we'd win easily.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Well, that was then.

BORGER: Well, oops.

BLITZER: He could have picked her, but he picked someone else.

BORGER: It's -- well, Mike Pence, Oprah Winfrey. I think that Oprah would have had something to say about that.

[13:20:00] But we haven't heard Donald Trump tweet about Oprah. Maybe if this gets serious, we'll hear from him. But, you know, he is somebody who was a celebrity before running and before being elected president. And I think, you know, Oprah said in an interview, I believe it was with David Rubenstein on CNBC, that she always thought that somebody had to have political experience before Donald Trump and that now that doesn't -- that doesn't seem to be the case. So maybe that fits into her new thinking.

DUBOIS: Yes.

BLITZER: Take a look at some similarities. And we've got a graphic. I want to put it up on the screen, Joshua. And we'll show your viewers. There you see it. Oprah Winfrey, her net worth, according to Forbes, is $2.8 billion, Donald Trump's, $3.1 billion according to Forbes. She's got a talk show -- she has had a talk show. She's got her own network. She has a magazine, "Oprah," "The O: The Oprah Mazagine," Harpo Films, Academy Award nominee, philanthropist. The last point you see there, same as he had, no political experience. He was a real estate developer. Still potentially is. He had the show, "The Apprentice." A lot in common there.

DUBOIS: A fair amount in common, but, you know, I think there are lots of differences obviously between Oprah Winfrey and Donald Trump. But one thing is true, in addition to being an inspirational figure, almost a spiritual figure, she's a great manager as well. She started her OWN network, you know, in 2011 and led a turnaround in 2015. You know, I think the ratings are up around 30 percent and she just sold a big chunk of that to Discovery. She ran her own show with her name on it as a host and a producer for, I think, 25 years. And so this is a woman who knows how to steward and shepherd a public platform. Thirty million or so Twitter followers. She is -- she's a spiritual leader. She's an inspirational and a hopeful leader. But a hard-nose manager as well who knows how to get things done.

BLITZER: One difference, and she pointed it out, her remarks in the Golden Globe last night Gloria, is that her mother, she grew up, her mother cleaned the homes of other people. Her mother was not a millionaire. Donald Trump's father was a major developer in Queens. He was a millionaire. So they came from different backgrounds.

BORGER: They come from different backgrounds. They're of different political persuasions. I remember when she was criticized for starting to get involved into politics when she came out and endorsed Barack Obama. That was sort of a big -- a big moment for her. And she hasn't shied away from politics since.

DUBOIS: She hasn't. But her approach in is usually through the lens of the vulnerable, the marginalized. And I think one of the most important moments in her speech last night wasn't just the big declaration at the end, but her evocation of Recy Taylor, the woman who was raped in the '40s, who just died 10 or 11 days ago. Very few people knew her story. Bu now I imagine if we checked the Google search records, everyone's googling Recy Taylor, because Oprah's bringing in these voices from Sofia in "The Color Purple," to Henrietta Lacks, in the story about DNA. That's what she does. And that means she may be able to reach out to marginalized Americans who feel like their voices aren't being heard and bring them in as well.

BLITZER: Let's not forget another TV movie star went on to become president of the United States named Ronald Reagan.

BORGER: Right.

BLITZER: First became governor of California. So he did have some political experience, eight years as governor before he became president. But there's a history here and we'll watch it all very closely.

BORGER: And she could -- she could self-finance if she needed to.

BLITZER: Yes.

DUBOIS: She could. And think about her constituency. Young people, women, people of color. These are core Democratic constituencies that she could bring in. Now, who knows if she wants the frustration of this job, right, you know? It would actually be a bit of a sacrifice potentially on her part to jump in the race, but, I don't know, she could do it.

BLITZER: She's a very talented woman and she's, according to Forbes, worth $2.8 billion. That's a lot of money.

All right, guys, thanks very much, Gloria Borger, Joshua Dubois.

Is President Trump closer to meeting face-to-face with Robert Mueller. There are new signs of potentially a major development in the Russia investigation.

And, also, as the president gets ready for his physical check-up this week, should mental exams also be mandatory for presidents? One former president makes the case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:27:58] BLITZER: One of the biggest questions still hanging over the Russia investigation is whether the president himself will meet with Robert Mueller's investigators. Senator Richard Blumenthal, who is on the Senate Judiciary Committee, said he expects a meeting will happen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Unquestionably there has to be that kind of face-to-face interview. The timing is important because the special counsel needs to have as many facts and as much evidence before he has that face-to-face interview with the president of the United States.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Let's bring in our justice correspondent, Jessica Schneider.

Jessica, is President Trump indicating he's open to meeting with these investigators?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, that seemed to be the sentiment when President Trump was asked about it at Camp David over the weekend, though he did quickly deflect to reiterate his talking point that there was no collusion between his campaign and the Russians. So take a listen to the president. He briefly says, yeah, when asked if he'd be interviewed by Special Counsel Robert Mueller, but then quickly pivots to defense.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Mr. President, if Robert Mueller asked you to come and speak with his committee personally, are you committed still to doing that? Did we --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes. Just so you understand -- just so you understand, there's been no collusion. There has been no crime. And, in theory, everybody tells me I'm not under investigation. Maybe Hillary is, I don't know. But I'm not. But there's been no collusion. There's been no crime. But we have been very open. We could have done it two ways. We could have been very closed and it would have taken years. But, you know, it's sort of like, when you've done nothing wrong, let's be open and get it over with because, honestly, it's very, very bad for our country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHNEIDER: So if and when the special counsel's team interviews the president, it would be a significant step because, of course, it would seem to signal the investigation is drawing to a close. Prosecutors do typically save the biggest interview for last, as we saw with Hillary Clinton just days before the FBI announced there would not be criminal charges relating to her e-mail server.

Now, Special Counsel Mueller's team, they have already interviewed some key players, past and present, from the White House. They include former Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, former Press Secretary Sean Spicer. And most recently, current Communications Director Hope Hicks, as well as White House Council Don McGahn.

[13:30:13] Now, Mueller's team, they aren't just probing