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Powerful Exchange Between Durbin, Graham & DHS Secretary on Trump Comments; Sen. Cory Booker Berets DHS Secretary over Trump Comments; Mitt Romney Dodges Question on Senate Run; Mueller Subpoenas Steve Bannon in Russia Probe; North Korea Calls Trump's Button Tweet "Spasm of a Lunatic". Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired January 16, 2018 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:30:00] CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER & CNN EDITOR-AT- LARGE: Either he said it, like Dick Durbin and Lindsey Graham acknowledge, or he didn't say it, like sort of the president acknowledges what Tom Cotton and David Perdue said. It's got to be one or the other. You heard Dick Durbin talking about trust with the president, and Lindsey Graham talked about it, you know, we need certainty, we need -- I don't know how you get it when the very root of the story remains in dispute.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN HOST: Both Lindsey Graham and Senator Durbin, they both made the point that earlier in the week in that meeting that the president had with bipartisan members, 55 minutes of which were seen on television, that the president specifically said, bring me a compromise, bring me a bipartisan deal, I will support it, I will take the heat, don't worry about it, just bring me the deal. So that's what they did, they brought him the deal and he rejected it. He wasn't willing, apparently, to take the heat from some of these Republicans who showed up at that meeting hating that compromise.

JUANA SUMMERS, CNN POLITICS SENIOR WRITER: Absolutely. And I think this whole flap that we're seeing right now, Wolf, over the comments that the president made during that meeting is certainly going to make this finding compromise even harder both on DACA and so many of these other issues. So many congressional Democrats have said, you know, we're not willing to sign for anything that doesn't do something for these 700,000 young people, who came to this country as young people illegally, that they're not willing to sign anything else. The comments the president made, the ones we've been talking about for the last several hours, will make those congressmen dig their heels and make it more likely we'll see a government shutdown on Friday night.

CILLIZZA: Again, so much of politics, I guess pre-Trump, was about trust, whether it was trust of Senators of different parties, House member of different parties, the two chambers between one another, Congress and the White House, that if you said something was going to happen, generally, it would get done. I just don't know how that preserves in an era of Donald Trump.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: All right, everybody -- hold on. Just one quick thought. Make your quick thought. GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALST: I want to say it's all

these people trying to manipulate the president, which is what's so interesting. Didn't the president know what was in the Graham/Durbin deal? And did people in the White House try to explain to him how bad it was vis-a-vis what he actually believes or campaigns on --

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: -- and try to pull him back from the precipice, or is this a president that has his own beliefs? That's really the question here because there is a tug-of-war for his heart and mind, and we don't know what's really in his heart and mind on this.

BLITZER: Clearly, Lindsey Graham and Senator Durbin, both Senators feel betrayed --

BORGER: Yes.

BLITZER: -- by the president's remarks early in the week as opposed to what happened in the subsequent meeting in the Oval Office. I will say this, based on what we heard from Senator Graham and Dick Durbin today, both still are hopeful that by the end of the week something can be done to avert a government shutdown and for to protect those DREAMers. We shall see.

Don't go away. There is a lot more coming.

Including some new fiery sound. Senator Cory Booker going off on the Homeland Security secretary.

Plus, the breaking news we're following. Robert Mueller, the special counsel, issuing a subpoena for Steve Bannon, the president's former chief strategist, in the wake of the "Fire and Fury" book. What does this mean for the Russia investigation? That, and a lot more coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[13:37:30] SEN. CORY BOOKER, (D), NEW JERSEY: I hurt. When Dick Durbin called me, I had tears of rage when I heard about his experience in that meeting. And for you not to feel that hurt and that pain and to dismiss some of the questions of my colleagues, saying I've already answered that line of questions with tens of millions of Americans who are hurting right now because of what they're worried about what happened in the White House, that's unacceptable to me. There are threats in this country. People plotting. I receive enough death threats to know the reality. Comla (ph) receives enough death threats to know the reality. Mazie receives enough death threats to know the reality. And I have a president of the United States, whose office I respect, who talks about the country's origins of my fellow citizens in the most despicable manner. You don't remember. You can't remember the words of your commander-in-chief. I find that unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: Cory Booker, the Democratic Senator from New Jersey, really going after Kirstjen Nielsen, the secretary of Homeland Security, during that truly extraordinary committee hearing earlier today, the Judiciary Committee.

Juana, it's not every day you hear a Senator berate a member of the cabinet along the lines he just did because she doesn't recall those very ugly words that the president uttered during that Oval Office meeting.

SUMMERS: That's right, Wolf. If I thought this was a really remarkable moment during a hearing that was full of very intense moments for these lawmakers. It really gets to what is tearing at so many people about the comments the president made during this meeting where, again, for not the first time during this administration and not the first time since President Trump became a political figure. Having to ask as journalists and Americans the question, is the president racist? Are the things he's raising and the policies racist? I think that's why you hear Senator Booker get so emotional about this topic because it is that important. It's a very big question. I think this is really scary and deeply unsettling to a lot of people that have come down the line to say, yes, these things are racist and his policies are.

BLITZER: Cory Booker did not mince any words at all.

Amidst all of this, there is another political news we're following. The former Republican presidential nominee, Mitt Romney, he's thinking very, very seriously of running for the U.S. Senate from Utah.

But listen how he sort of dodged the question moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Romney, it was a great speech. People who give great speeches would look good in the U.S. Senate. Have you ever thought about that?

(LAUGHTER)

[13:40:04] MITT ROMNEY, (D), FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR & FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I have nothing for you on that topic, Millie.

(LAUGHTER)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLITZER: I guess he was dodging it.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: No one thinks he's not going to be running.

BORGER: I don't know why he's holding off. Everybody knows he wants to run. There have been reports that he's telling people who can fund a campaign that he wants to run. And that if he runs, he would clearly be elected in the state of Utah. Orrin Hatch wants him to run. I don't know what this --

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: The seat that Orrin Hatch is giving up.

BORGER: Exactly. I just don't know what the game is with that.

CILLIZZA: I'm with Gloria. The only thing I could think of, because he's running, is he wants to do some big-show announcement with every statewide public official with him, with a lot of money donated.

But to Gloria's point, it's hard to see in a world in which Steve Bannon is significantly reduced as sort of a factor in Republican primaries how -- Jason Chaffetz is not running, the former congressman. He said he's endorsed Romney. It's hard to see how Romney would lose. What we know about Romney, though, is he is a super cautious, detailed-oriented guy. But, yes, he's running for U.S. Senate. To Gloria's point, he's an overwhelming favorite, barring some unforeseen circumstance to come. I'm sort of more interested in what role he plays once he gets here. The governor of Utah, who is a Republican, said he envisioned Mitt Romney eventually becoming Senate majority leader and working with his ticket mate, Paul Ryan, which is a fascinating -- Mitt Romney is not likely to remain a back bencher for long.

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: My question is whether Mitt Romney will run for president, period, in 2020.

BLITZER: Yes. He did once. Twice he ran.

(CROSSTALK)

BLITZER: Maybe the third time could be the charm.

(LAUGHTER)

Everybody, stand by.

There's more news we're following, including breaking news. Robert Mueller issuing a subpoena, yes, a grand jury subpoena for Steve Bannon, the president's former chief strategist, in the wake of the "Fire and Fury" book. What does this mean for the Russia investigation? We have new information. Stand by.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:46:24] BLITZER: There's breaking news we're following in the Russia investigation. The "New York Times" now reporting that Special Counsel Robert Mueller has issued a grand jury subpoena to the former White House chief strategist, Steve Bannon. Bannon was meeting behind closed doors with the House Intelligence Committee up on Capitol Hill earlier in the day as part of its Russia investigation. Let's bring in our CNN legal analysts, Carrie Cordero and Laura

Coates, along with our justice correspondent, Evan Perez.

Evan, the subpoena to Steve Bannon follows his rather startling comments in that new book "Fire and Fury" in which he says the Trump Tower meeting in June of 2016 with Russians was treasonous and unpatriotic. He also goes one step further suggesting that the Russia probe, in his words, in the book, all about money laundering.

EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Right. I think those are all comments that are going to be brought up by the special counsel when he does go in for this interview, for this testimony. And it's also unusual that they're using a subpoena to compel this testimony, Wolf. Previously, in almost every instance when it comes to somebody close to the president, the special counsel has negotiated a voluntary interview. In this case, they're doing a compelled testimony in front of the grand jury. That suggests that it is not a willing testimony, that it is a bit of a hostile witness who is coming in, perhaps.

And it's also interesting to us that Bannon, of course, didn't join the campaign until August of 2016. That's after the now infamous Trump Tower meeting in which Donald Trump Jr had asked for or was supposed to be getting dirt on Hillary Clinton from Russians that he was meeting. So there is a lot I think he doesn't know, but there is a lot he does know. Obviously, he was there for the first six months of the presidency of Donald Trump, so I think he's a very, very important witness.

BLITZER: I always suspected, Laura, when he talks about money laundering being at the heart, we know that Mueller has been investigating collusion, obstruction of justice. Money laundering adds a whole new component.

LAURA COATES CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It does, but the idea of following the money is very important. The entire premise of if collusion did occur, what was it that made somebody vulnerable and receptive to any interest in trying to collude? Look at the money, look at the finances, look at why they would be malleable in some way, shape or form. Remember, Manafort and Gates, a big primary component of their indictment is about money laundering. Again, it's about vulnerability, and a prosecutor is going to capitalize on just that. If what Bannon has to say is true, of course, Mueller would look into it.

BLITZER: What does it say to you, Carrie, that a grand jury subpoena was issued as opposed to simply inviting him in to questioning from the FBI and special counsel staff?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm curious about whether or not the subpoena was some kind of surprise to Steve Bannon and his lawyer or whether this actually was part of a negotiation where Steve Bannon actually preferred to be subpoenaed, in other words, preferred to be compelled by the special counsel's office to say you must appear in front of the grand jury.

But I think it will play stressors. Right now, Steve Bannon signed up to the same legal counsel as two other individuals, the current White House counsel and Reince Priebus, the former chief of staff. This -- him having to go in front of the grand jury without the presence of his lawyer there I think might start to put a little bit of stress on that joint representation arrangement.

BLITZER: It that unusual for all of those individuals who have been called up for questioning to share the same lawyer?

CORDERO: It does happen in white-collar types of cases. I personally have been a little bit surprised in this particular circumstance given how highly sensitive, high stakes this is, and the different for individuals to have different recollections, different perspectives on what happened, different stories.

[13:50:12] PEREZ: We did get a statement from the lawyer that's representing him --

BLITZER: Steve Bannon?

PEREZ: Bannon, in front of this House Intelligence Committee meeting. And he made clear that he is only representing Bannon only with regard to this House Intelligence meeting, not related to anything involving Mueller. So --

COATES: And why that is clear is because, if they were co-defendants, they would not all have the same lawyer. Then they would then have competing interests, and you want to get a deal with one maybe to the advantage of another. So you wouldn't have it there. But in this context, you want someone like a current adviser for Priebus or McGahn who would already know about what's happening. Apparently, neither of them are having the experience that Bannon is having with Mueller.

BLITZER: Evan, you were in court today, the federal court in Washington, went for an hour and a half to nearly two hours. Paul Manafort, the former Trump campaign chairman, and his associate, Rick Gates, they appeared. What happened?

PEREZ: The headline of that is that we're looking at a trial in perhaps September, maybe pushed into October of this year. The government had earlier contemplated perhaps a trial in May. We're talking about a trial that is going to be pushed into the time when we're talking about the 2018 midterm elections. All of this trial stuff will be going on right in the thick of the election -- Wolf?

BLITZER: They've both been charged but they'[re pleading not guilty, at least so far.

CORDERO: They're pleading not guilty, and also they have launched a challenge to the special counsel's regulation to begin with, challenging that the special counsel is even able to bring this indictment and sort of challenging whether the special counsel has exceeded the scope of his original mandate. So, the judge needs to wrestle with how that is going to impact their criminal case.

BLITZER: You have a final thought on that, Laura? COATES: Likely, this is not a criminal challenge they've given. He

has given the judge many options to do. He'd like him to dismiss the action. But talking about the challenge and scope of Mueller's investigation, you're right, it's very different than whether you committed the counts in the 12-page indictment. They're separate.

BLITZER: All right, a lot to assess.

Laura, Carrie, guys, thank you very much.

The quote, "Spasm of a lunatic." North Korea firing right back at President Trump's nuclear button rhetoric, calling him a psychopath. It comes on a very critically important day.

Plus, a short time from now, the president's physician from the Walter Reed Medical Center here in Washington will appear before reporters to unveil the results of the president's physical that he took last Friday. Stand by. We'll, of course, have live coverage.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:57:12] BLITZER: It took a while, but North Korea is now officially responding to President Trump's tweet about the size of Kim Jong-Un's nuclear button, calling the president's comments the "spasms of a lunatic" and going on to call President Trump a "loser who is in desperate mental state."

Those strong words come as Secretary of State Rex Tillerson meets with foreign ministers from 19 countries in Vancouver discussing tensions on the Korean peninsula.

Let's go to our senior diplomatic correspondent, Michelle Kosinski, in Vancouver for us.

Michelle, is this tough talk continuing out there?

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CNN SENIOR DIPLOMATIC CORRESPONDENT: That language that you just heard from North Korea was definitely not matched by any of the countries here. They don't want to inflame tensions anymore. They don't want to mess up the fact that North Korea and South Korea are remarkably talking, even though, for now, it is just about the Olympics.

What they want this to be is this unified message that none of these countries, including, by the way, Russia and China, who are not represented here, will accept North Korea as a nuclear state.

But they also want to move things forward. They're using this as an assessment of how the pressure campaign is going on North Korea and looking for additional ways to put on pressure if North Korea continues to be provocative.

I guess what stood out from Secretary of State Tillerson's remarks, though, was, at one point, he showed this chart of all the air traffic in the vicinity of North Korea on a recent day to emphasize the point that when North Korea fires off a missile, it puts civilian aircraft at risk. And he used a number of more than 100,000 people on these planes that could be at risk. That's a threat we don't often hear him address.

But I think the toughest talk today, the most-blunt statement came from the Japanese foreign minister, who said that he thought North Korea is just buying time by having these talks, and if the talks don't go North Korea's way, they're likely to just blame other people for it. He said don't be naive or blinded by North Korea's charm offensive. I guess, Wolf, if you can call it a charm offensive.

BLITZER: Russia and China did not participate in these talks in Vancouver, right?

KOSINSKI: Yes. I mean, these are countries -- the way the State Department is framing it -- and they organized this with Canada -- is that these are just the countries that contributed to the U.N. force during the Korean War. So, even though it's strange that Russia and China, who bear the most influence over North Korea, aren't here, they say, well, this is just the smaller group, and China and Russia are absolutely going to be, you know, copied on all the information and developments that could come out of here -- Wolf?

BLITZER: Michelle Kosinski reporting for us from Vancouver. Thanks very much.

That's it for me. I'll be back 5:00 p.m. eastern in "THE SITUATION ROOM."

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For our viewers in North America, "NEWSROOM" with Brooke Baldwin starts now.

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