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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Source: Mueller Pushes for Gates' Help on Collusion; President Trump Tweets Photos and Says New Border Wall Construction has "Started;" New CNN Polling Out Tonight Showing Voters Have Predictions For The 2020 Presidential Elections; Going to Extreme Lengths for Clean Water in Martin County. Aired 9:00-10p ET
Aired March 29, 2018 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[21:00:46] ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Well, the question is cooperation. Tonight for the first time, we're learning how Robert Mueller is getting information that could lead to the answer.
On the table, new reporting on cooperating witness Rick Gates and the extent of his cooperation with Mueller. Also the wall, for a second time the President said the construction is underway. For the second time his claims faces, a wall of doubt.
Plus, what new polling has to say about the presidential campaign that is already underway, Trump 2020, good news for President Trump from his base.
First though, the Russian story that CNN is breaking tonight. Evan Perez joins us with that. So explain what you've learned?
EVAN PEREZ, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, we don't often get a lot of detail behind the scenes of what's going on between Mueller and the people he's investigating or talking to. But that's what we got from my colleague Kaitlan Collins.
We're told that during these talks that occurred over the period of months before Rick Gate decided to plead guilty to criminal charges that Mueller's investigators told Rick Gates that they didn't need him to provide information against Paul Manafort who is his former business partner and of course the former campaign chairman for the Trump campaign. What they said, they needed him for was to try to zero in on contacts between the Trump campaign and Russia, what the President and his allies call collision.
This is a big deal simply because it tells us that Mueller is not done with this question of collusion despite the fact that we hear repeatedly from the President, from the White House that there is no collusion. It appears that they very much want Rick Gates' help in this collusion investigation.
COOPER: And any indications now of how this is playing out with Gates?
PEREZ: We're beginning to see a little bit of it from some court filings. We saw this week in which we're told that Rick Gates was in frequent contact with someone that the U.S. government said is a Russian spy, a person who works for one of the Russian intelligence agency. They didn't name that person but we know that person to Konstantin Kilimnik.
Now, he is told -- "The Washington Post" that he is not -- has any ties -- does not have any ties to Russian intelligence. But this court filling in which they basically say that he's a Russian spy. It's the first time that we've seen the Mueller investigation, essentially tying Paul Manafort and the Trump campaign directly to Russian intelligence.
Again, it goes to the central question that Robert Mueller is investigating, which is whether or not there was any collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.
COOPER: All right, Evan Perez, thanks for the reporting. I appreciate it.
Joining us now, former CIA Director and Retired Air Force General Michael Hayden.
General Hayden, the fact that Mueller asked for Rick Gates' help on possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia, no information about Manafort, what does that tell you?
MICHAEL HAYDEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Well, it's quite remarkable and I watched carefully what Evan just reported. And it does fit the pattern that we saw before. It seems they have enough documentary evidence on Manafort that you really didn't need Gates verbal testimony.
The suspicion Rick Gates was being offered with a very generous deal for other purposes. And now we're getting more and more confirmation if that was indeed the case.
You know, Anderson, we're seeing this on a Karam shot. We don't quite what always perfectly accurate, what maybe inaccurate, we certainly don't have all the information but you know just from an analytic point of view you can see the pace picking up.
I've been on inside for similar searches and you've got data all over the place and you really begin to get enthused when the pieces begin to connect with one another. And that's what we're seeing here. Now, in terms of criminality, it may not lead anywhere. But in terms of the analytic case you can really see a pace here.
COOPER: We also learned that Gates was in contact, according to this, with a person tied to a Russian intelligence agency, the GRU Russian military intelligence or had past ties. He had frequent -- Gates had frequent phone calls with that person even in September and October of 2016. If that is accurate, that does seem to be the first direct tie between someone in the campaign and someone with contacts with Russian intelligence.
HAYDEN: Well, Yes. But we've seen other indications of that. Remember the meeting in Trump Tower with Veselnitskaya who has a murky history of contacts with Russian security.
[21:05:03] Papadopoulos, talking with someone who also has murky contacts with Russian security services. I mean, yes, I'd point out really an unforced error on the part of the President and his campaign to be so categorical, no Russians, no way, no how. We're seeing great body of evidence that the President, his family, his business, his campaign had a lot of contacts with a lot of Russians which may be entirely innocent. But now we're seeing Bob Mueller explore each of those linkages.
COOPER: You know, when you're talk about somebody who had past associations with the GRU or with the FSB or KGB, I mean does that automatically, in your mind, make you believe past contacts or also current contacts? They could say back in the day I had some contacts.
HAYDEN: Not necessarily --
COOPER: Someone could variously say, look, back in -- you know, back in the day, I have some contacts.
HAYDEN: Yes. It's not a prima facie case, but they remain an agent of the Russian Federation. But it does raise legitimate suspicions. I mean let's use Veselnitskaya, the lawyer who wanted to talk about adoption at the meeting at Trump Tower.
Now she gave a business card and I'm sure it didn't say GRU or SVR on it but she has a history of representing Russian interest and being associated, affiliated with these folks. And Kilimnik has a history with the GRU to enrich it just a little bit, Anderson. I mean, here's a man who has a home in Both Kiev and in Moscow and was intimately involved in working with Manafort and his team to pump up Yanukovych who was Moscow's man in Kiev. And so -- I mean, there are reasons to have some serious questions here.
COOPER: Right. I mean, he still working in the sphere of politics in Ukraine for a pro-Russian government leader of Ukraine. So I mean, it could stand to reason that Russia would be interested in contacts with that person.
HAYDEN: Oh absolutely. Let's just take someone we know something more about, Chris Steele. Chris Steele is former MI-6 but yet when he did this dossier for a commercial client he was so concerned that he re-established contacts with American security forces and the FBI. These folks want you to become part of this network, maintain contacts within that network.
COOPER: I want to ask you about the move by Russia today, close the U.S. St. Petersburg, U.S. diplomat, which obviously comes after the U.S. expel 60 Russian diplomats in response to the U.K. poisoning, but does it about the state of relations between the U.S. and Russia right now. I mean, how bad are they?
HAYDEN: Yes. We're at a pretty low point. I think we've pretty much exhausted declaring persona non grata, each and other nation's diplomats here. If we want to increase pressure on the Russians in future, I think we'll going to have to go down another lane. And that probably has to do with Russian finances and Russian unexplained wealth. So we're at a very low point here.
You know, Anderson, folks like me when we kind of get together and chat about this, we look at the Russian covert action, the covert influence campaign with regard to the American Presidential election. And we remind one another that there are probably more tears sheds over successful covert action campaigns than unsuccessful ones. Here you had a magnificent Russian effort operationally and technically and what has it led to, improved relations, improved status for the Russians globally, absolutely not.
COOPER: General Hayden, I appreciate your time. Thank you.
HAYDEN: Thank you.
COOPER: I want to bring in the panel. Molly Ball is here, Jeff Toobin, Stephen Moore, Christine Quinn, Bryan Lanza and Peter Beinart.
How big do you think this Rick Gates news is?
MOLLY BALL, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Look, my -- what I always go back to it, this investigation is, number one, we don't know. This is very much blind man in the elephant with everything we learn, right? We get this trickle of hints and tea leaves and suppositions. So there's a lot that is very suggestive about this development. But we don't know what it means. And we won't know.
What I think we do know is the way that Mueller's proceeding is very methodical and it's exactly what Trump feared, nothing is off limits, right? He's casting a wide net. And he is following the investigation where it leads him and he doesn't consider anything to be out of his purview. So I think what we see is that this is suggestive of an investigation that is wide ranging.
COOPER: We don't know, Jeff, what Gates has said to Mueller though, obviously.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: We don't. And we don't know what connect the part-time Russian spy said to Manafort and Gates. But we do know that Kilimnik was an employee of Manafort organization at some point. So this is not some tenuous connection. I mean, this is a direct relationship between Manafort and a Russian spy.
[21:10:09] What that led to, what exchanges we had, I don't know. But this is not like crazy talk. This is a real connection between soviet spies and the campaign chairman for Donald Trump.
COOPER: Bryan, one of the things elect Trump supporters and people in the White House have said along is -- after the Manafort indictments and after the charge against Gates, well look all the stuff happened a long time before campaign, had nothing to do with the campaign. This seems to be that, according to this that Gates allegedly had contact with this individual while he was working for the campaign.
BRYAN LANZA, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, what it looks like is this is a long term business partner Gates and Manafort and the conversations never stop. We don't know what the context of those conversations may be.
LANZA: I think Mueller is going to determine what those contexts of those conversations are but I don't -- I mean it's -- does it make me uncomfortable that Gates and Manafort had this long lasting relationship, which you said so, which is now the Russia, you know the federation --
TOOBIN: Sorry, I was been watching the American so --
LANZA: The scariest show on TV by far. But -- you know, I mean, they're going to have to answer it. And Manafort going to sort of -- not Manafort -- Mueller is going to dig into what those conversations took place. They could be -- we don't know what those conversations are. And I think it's important to let Manafort go through his process. But we have been doing this over a year. We have known that early on that the FBI leaked more than the titanic that's why ultimately Comey got fired. And we're still -- we had very little tangible evidence that shown any type of collusion. We have innuendo. We have a lot of partisan smoke. But we haven't seen that direct connection.
COOPER: You said, Manafort to go through his process. I think you meant Mueller.
LANZA: Correct Mueller. Too many Ms.
CHRISTINE QUINN, HEAD, WOMEN IN NEED: I'm not really sure that's why Comey got fired but I think from a political perspective what's significant tonight is President Trump, his supporters can no longer say that collusion has not come up at all. Right, that's been a real talking point tat -- not, all these investigation, all this partisan smoke et cetera, et cetera and collusion hasn't come up it all in the investigation. Whether that was a true statement or not, you cannot make that statement anymore.
STEPHEN MOORE, FORMER SENIOR ECONOMIC ADVISER, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION: It's still an allegation.
QUINN: You and other Trump supporters, and Trump have been saying is that --
MOORE: Show us the evidence.
QUINN: But right now. We don't know --
MOORE: We don't know.
QUINN: -- as other said, what's going on.
MOORE: You can't say there was collusion.
QUINN: No, that's not what I said. What you all have been saying is that the investigation has brought nothing up of collusion.
QUINN: What we see now is --
MOORE: It's an allegation of collusion.
QUINN: Which you all would never admit was part of it. And the investigation has now put that out there in way you politically can try to deny.
TOOBIN: Why isn't the June 20th meeting collusion? You have an e- mail from the P.R. guy saying the Russian government wants to help your campaign and Donald Trump says love it. And they have a meeting. Isn't that collusion?
QUINN: And it does wasn't --
COOPER: Or willingness to collude not that collusion --
QUINN: Right, it interest in.
LANZA: This is much different than -- you know, actually committing something wrong. I think what people forget about the Trump campaign and the why some of these meetings were able to take place is what made us so successful, was the fact that we were small. We are very entrepreneur. We met with people that normal campaigns wouldn't traditionally meet with. As --
LANZA: Like volunteers who would never have access to --
QUINN: Who then have pled guilty and cut a deal with the independent prosecutor.
LANZA: For lying to --
COOPER: We're going to take break. I wan to hear from Peter, just when we come back and the rest of the panel.
Also coming up, the President says the new border wall is on the way up. The question is what do the facts say? We went down to that wall. We'll show you ahead.
[21:16:50] COOPER: We're talking about the breaking news evidence obtained by CNN that Robert Mueller is not really using brigades to make the money laundering case against his former boss Paul Manafort but evidence ensure that Mueller aiming much higher than that.
Back now with the panel. Peter, what do you make of this and do you think there's any scenario under which Mueller does not interview the President?
PETER BEINART, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I mean, it seems likely he would. I mean, what I found remarkable is every time the Mueller investigation does something else that shows how serious and professional these guys are, it reminds me that Trump doesn't really have a legal team. It's like you're playing tennis against Serena Williams and you don't have a racquet. You know. And, you know, that makes me think that -- it's more likely that Trump is going to try fire him because it doesn't seems to be Trump has put himself in a position to really go toe to toe with these guys legally. And -- you know, if I were him, I would be terrified by that.
COOPER: But he's got -- I mean, do you believe he'll be able to find some legal folks?
TOOBIN: Legal zoom, baby. That's where he's going to go.
COOPER: But I mean, it's so odd because -- I mean, normally working for a President would be the pinnacle of somebody's career.
TOOBIN: Yes, and we're not in the normal area. And the combination of that fact that, you know, he doesn't listen to lawyers and he thinks he's smarter than lawyers and he doesn't pay the lawyers he has makes him an undesirable client.
Combine with that fact that so many Washington law firms now already have clients in this investigation, and less genuinely do have conflicts of interest.
But in a normal setting if you can imagine one, the President of the United States would have less of a problem finding a lawyer.
QUINN: And I think if you think about the President -- on top of that, the President kind of psyche, he'll have some group of lawyers, right?
TOOBIN: Yes, he will.
QUINN: Not the top notch lawyers. Not the lawyers you would want in a serious situation like this but really through just be "his lawyers" and he'll be his lawyer.
And I could see something crazy happening like I'm going, which is actually already said. I'm just going to go in and see Mueller. I'm going to do that investigation. I've got nothing to hide and further craziness could ensue and really who knows what would happen.
BALL: Well, and I think the thing that Trump does know is that this isn't as much about the legality as it is the political case. And that's what he is doing when he defends himself on Twitter and it drives his lawyers crazy when he talks out of school and says whatever he feels like and says things that aren't true. And that's what makes him so difficult to defend. But he knows that at the end of the day this isn't a legal matter because no matter what Mueller comes u p with, it's ultimately a political matter. It is ultimately a matter of where is public opinion? Who is in Congress? What do they feel empowered to do and how seriously do they take this? And that all depends on what he can convince the American people.
TOOBIN: Mostly though. I mean, if he sits down with Mueller and says things that are actively untrue, that is grounds for impeachment. And that's why --
BALL: Which is a political matter.
TOOBIN: Right. But I mean -- Yes, you're right. Impeachment is a political matter. But -- I mean, you have control about whether you speak to Mueller or not. And it certainly seems to me that he is heading in the direction of not talking to Mueller at all. I just -- you know --
[21:20:02] COOPER: Do you think he's laying the ground work for that.
TOOBIN: He's laying the ground work either to have a legal objection saying, you know, there's no justification or simply taking the fifth. And saying, this is a bogus investigation and I don't want any part of it.
BALL: I think there's an inner conflict for Trump here. I really think there's a part of him that feels that he can talk anybody into anything and he can talk himself out of any situation. And we've heard this from him before his first in state in the beginning was I'm just going to ---
MOORE: The only way Trump is going to talk to Mueller is if he has something on him. But he doesn't. I mean, that's the whole point -- you guys -- we have been talking about this week after week after week, after week is been -- how long has this been now.
MOORE: If I were Trump, I would just say, look, you have three more months and then it's over.
COOPER: But why would we know -- I mean, this is ongoing investigation.
MOORE: Because it's been 15 months. I mean, how --
COOPER: But it's not as if they are holding weekly press conferences where they're saying this is what we have right now.
QUINN: But I think we're contorting time here. Time in an investigation conducted by someone with the stature of Mueller and the deep, deep team he has, time can indicate they are finding more and more. And not that they're finding nothing --
MOORE: It's going on a long time. I mean, that can be stature of limitations --
QUINN: Well, you know what? The Democrats raised that during the Clinton administration.
MOORE: It's payback time, right?
QUINN: No, Mueller is --
BEINART: It's not payback. People did not do this under George W. Bush in the same way. The reason that people are doing this is because actually there's been real stuff that has come out especially on the obstruction case, right? We know that he said that he fired Comey over the Russia investigation, right? Certainly on the obstruction, I don't think how you can see that --
QUINN: And people have pleaded guilty in this investigation.
MOORE: But nothing to do with the Russia investigation, most likely do with previous Trump stuff in line to the FBI on different matters.
QUINN: What is it? We'll know when it's done. And time in investigation --
MOORE: But now Mueller wants to go into Trump's financial dealing --
QUINN: Mueller wants to go where the facts take him. That's what a good investigator does. We don't know whether he does or doesn't --
MOORE: But that's the whole problem of having a special investigator with no --
BEINART: Almost like he could go from white water to Monica Lewinsky, gosh.
MOORE: Well, but you know what, I mean, I think it's interesting --
BEINART: You're having second thoughts about that, huh?
MOORE: No. Here is the point -- I mean look, Republicans --
QUINN: It's just an interesting --
MOORE: -- I think wrongly tried to impeach Clinton for the whole Monica Lewinsky thing. And you know what? One of the reasons that people didn't care about that was because the economy was booming under Clinton. I think the same thing is happening right. I mean, the economy is booming. People feel great about the economy and they don't want to have this investigation go on and on
TOOBIN: So why are Republicans losing all these congressional races if people think the economy is great?
MOORE: Oh, I mean, there's no question the economy is booming.
BEINART: Because they don't like Donald Trump. That's the answer. MOORE: Somewhat Trump's behavior. But my point is --
TOOBIN: Somewhat Trump's behavior, yes that's one way of putting it.
MOORE: The reason Richard Nixon was impeached --
QUINN: He broke the law.
MOORE: It was because the economy was in trouble.
TOOBIN: No, that's not.
QUINN: That is ridiculous.
MOORE: -- people didn't feel good about the way they economy was going.
COOPER: But that was a massive criminal enterprise.
MOORE: Well, show it. I mean, show it. I mean these are --
COOPER: But I mean, it's been shown. I'm not talking about Trump. I'm talking about Nixon.
MOORE: -- day after day after day it's all these allegations. It's gone on for 14 months. And we're bored with this.
QUINN: But you know what, what I think it just -- I have to know --
LANZA: Every story is a young story. There's nothing new being developed. And there's a lot of anonymous sources.
COOPER: OK. I got to ask you. The Washington Post did report last week you were the one who gave George Papadopoulos the green light.
LANZA: And that's --
COOPER: Interview on Russian states news agency.
LANZA: Pamela Brown (ph) broke that story in October of last year.
COOPER: Did you have concerns about Papadopoulos at all?
LANZA: At the time?
LANZA: At the time, he is just somebody who wanted to do a T.V. interview. Prove. Go on your way.
COOPER: That's all it was?
LANZA: That's all it was. And that's what it was with nearly everybody who wanted to do an interview. Who called the campaign and said, I've got -- I've got a local NBC affiliate reporter. I want to do an interview. I'm not sure I can say that. I want to do an interview, can I go on? Yes. Say this. That's what happens.
QUINN: County chairs all across the country are going to go on TV and say things and you can't control that. But he worked for the campaign.
LANZA: He didn't work for the campaign. He didn't have an email, they didn't have payroll. He was a volunteer on policy.
QUINN: He was an adviser announced on a campaign press release.
QUINN: But beyond that, I want to go back to the kind of --
LANZA: But he didn't work. He didn't get paid. He wasn't -- he didn't have an email.
QUINN: He was an adviser on --
LANZA: He was a volunteer adviser, correct.
QUINN: No, he --
LANZA: No? I was on the campaign. He was a volunteer.
QUINN: He was an announced adviser by the campaign. You can recreate history as you're kind of recreating what happened under Clinton and you sir were kind of saying that's what happened with special prosecutors. But we have seen the Republicans demanding another special prosecutor.
MOORE: I don't think that's right. I mean do you think this is good for the country right now? For day after day after day, we have to have all of our national sanction on this -- you know, all of these allegations when we got major problems --
QUINN: I think that these set of facts having some connection and having questions around the White House, I think it is a terrible thing. But I think not getting to the root answers and potentially letting justice not be done is a worst thing for America. And I don't think Americans only care about the economy.
[21:25:14] MOORE: So you think it should go on for two or three or four years or whatever --
QUINN: I think it should go the quality investigator that he is until he finishes investigation.
COOPER: All right, we're going to take a break. More to talk about when we continue look at the Presidential tweet on the border wall, his claim once again that construction is under way on his wall and whether is truth to that? We're keeping him honest.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) COOPER: President Trump told a crowd in Ohio today that his border wall, as he put it, already started. In a tweet he sent out yesterday, he said, "Great briefing this afternoon on the start of our border wall." And he posted these photos. It turns out however those photos were anything but, they started something new. Here is an excerpt from our report last hour from CNN's Gary Tuchman who went down there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GARY TUCHMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The pictures were taken here. We're standing in Imperial County California in the city of Calexico, on the other side of this fence, the city of Mexicali, Mexico. This is not the start of the border wall. The fence is new but it's a long awaited replacement fence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: And Gary also reported there's actually been some sort of fencing there since as early as the 1920s.
Back now with our panel. Does it seem, Bryan, I mean, weird that the President is saying this is the start of the long awaited border wall when in fact it's just replacing fencing that's existed -- I think it was put up under the Bush administration?
LANZA: You know, I'm not in White House so I can't tell you what the thought process was. But knowing the President, he probably see this as the first step, sort of replacing the old wall, with some new wall before we move on to the next step of further wall along the boarder. Like I said, I wasn't part of but I can just see him saying this is the first step of many steps that we're going to see --
MOORE: By the way, I've been at the board many times, so when you say there was a wall there, there was a fence with huge gaps in it. So --
LANZA: Nothing even close to a wall.
COOPER: No. But that's not true, that's pretty much the same wall that was being replaced. They are just replacing it. They're not building another prototype.
MOORE: Well, I'm talking about -- I was in the San Diego. This was maybe eight or 10 years ago but I mean, it is -- there was no -- not only was, there not a wall, there wasn't even a fence. And people were just going right through the holes in the fence and coming over at night.
[21:30:07] COOPER: Yes.
MOORE: But look, I think this is going to be a very interesting --
COOPER: But to that point. The President has not started to build wall in that area where you were in San Diego, right?
MOORE: Well -- COOPER: Because there are --
MOORE: -- he says he wants a wall all the --
COOPER: But it hasn't started. It hasn't actually started, correct? I mean they're just replacing a wall, which is what they do replacing old fencing which is what they've done for --
MOORE: No. Look, he can't build the wall if he doesn't have the money to do it. And --
COOPER: Right. But he's claiming he's building the wall. I mean that's what he's saying. So isn't that weird?
MOORE: Well, the wall is being built but they don't have enough money to finish it. That's the problem.
COOPER: But it's not being built. I mean --
COOPER: -- where actually is the wall being built in the ground that is -- I mean wall -- I mean --
BALL: The new wall is not being built.
COOPER: I mean, yes, they has been put up like various prototypes to look at them but they're not actually building a new wall.
LANZA: Like he said, he probably sees the replacement of this old wall.
COOPER: Right. It's going crazy.
BALL: No. I mean he thinks --
LANZA: Or he sees there's a replacement of this old wall with new additional wall. It's probably the first steps to the broader wall.
QUINN: But you can see a chicken as a penguin --
QUINN: But it's still a chicken.
BEINART: I mean this is what Donald Trump does it. Why Donald Trump, what he says to himself in he head when he lies constantly in his -- I mean no.
MOORE: What's the lie?
BEINART: The lie is, this is not the beginning of the wall that he has promised. It's just a routine replacement of fence by another fence. MOORE: The Democrats won't allow him --
BEINART: OK. That doesn't -- 2
MOORE: That some of the money but --
QUINN: But that's not what happened here. They're replacing part of a fence. This is -- I mean they're not --
COOPER: But he's not saying I can't get the money for the wall. He's saying --
QUINN: If the President said we're -- here's a picture. See this fence moving. We're building the new fence. He's not.
BEINART: I do think --
QUINN: He's fixing a broken part of an old fence.
COOPER: All right.
BEINART: I think clearly this is something that's politically concerning about him, right, because -- you know, this was the signature proposal in his campaign. Immigration is the most important issue I think linking him to his base. If that wall doesn't get built, right? I think it potentially deflates a little bit some of the support.
And you're seeing Ann Coulter going out there saying, he needs a primary site --
BEINART: -- he needs a primary challenge. So I think that's why he anxious about this. So he lies.
MOORE: Let's talk about the politics.
COOPER: But let's put the tweet up again because I really think I'm going crazy. What does it say? This is the start, it's says great briefing this afternoon on the start of our southern border wall. This is not the start of the southern border wall. This is the pre- existing wall that's been there for a long time and they're just --
MOORE: He's fortifying it but look --
MOORE: I just want to -- I just cannot figure this out. Why are the Democrat you -- we have a $4 trillion federal budget, right? $4 trillion. The Democrats, the only thing I've been doing this stuff for so long on the budget. The only I've ever seen Democrat not want to spend money, there's a wall that will secure border. Why is it --
TOOBIN: Why is this an issue because I thought Mexico was going to pay for it?
MOORE: Well, that's -- I don't think that's going to happen but we should have Congress. But nobody answers the question. Why --
BEINART: Because you know what, because the idea of securing the border again and he command is a lie. There are no enemy combatants coming across the border.
MOORE: -- drug runners?
MOORE: And the illegal immigrants and so on.
QUINN: Because I -- first of all it's a terrible --
MOORE: They're coming across the border.
QUINN: It's a terrible immigration policy and it doesn't speak to the real issue of immigration.
LANZA: The people voted for Donald Trump because he asked for a wall.
MOORE: He got the popular vote.
BEINART: Well, because he competed for the (INAUDIBLE). He won the presidency.
COOPER: I guess, for me this is -- but this is really more about than just lying.
COOPER: And this is just -- that's why I'm sort of curious about this because -- and it's actually the second time they've lied about this. Mick Mulvaney lied about this early on in the administration from the White House podium where he held a pictures saying, you know, stuff has started on the --
COOPER: -- border. And, you know, this is the beginning. When, in fact, again, all they were doing what just --
QUINN: Because --
COOPER: -- repairing some old fences.
QUINN: Well, this is what I want -- the lying issue --
COOPER: And they did under Obama, you wouldn't say, oh my god, Obama is building a new southern border wall. You're saying, oh yes, Obama is repairing some fencing or George W. Bush would say, oh yes, he's repairing --
LANZA: Is that the one Hillary supported because she did support it between Mexico and the U.S.?
COOPER: Well, I mean if Clinton was president, I don't think you would say she's building a border wall. You'd say, oh yes, she's repairing fencing. I wish she would build a border wall.
QUINN: But Anderson the bigger issue here really is because we -- devolved into conversation about whether lying is lying. And then it's a policy that whether lying is lying is at. This President, his facts are just wildly irrelevant. And he'll say whatever he wants, whatever he needs and then say those who disagree are fake news to try to keep his part of the base together. And it really is a disservice to the American people. And a real --
MOORE: No, come on. The disservice is --
QUINN: Lying is that this -- no, no, no. Please, sir.
MOORE: Congress will not appropriate the money for the wall.
QUINN: This is not a question about that. This is a question about why is he lying to America.
[21:35:00] COOPER: Stephen, you agree he's not telling the truth here?
MOORE: Honestly don't get your point. I mean he wants a large sum of money to build a big, beautiful wall.
COOPER: He can tweet that out.
MOORE: And the Congress --
MOORE: -- the Democrats -- COOPER: Right.
MOORE: -- Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi --
COOPER: But he's not that and what he's saying is that. What he's saying is that we've begun. It's begun.
MOORE: But they have begun. They have -- I mean they are, they have begun fortifying the wall, but they don't have the funds to do it.
COOPER: We were just down there? That's literally not a new wall.
MOORE: That's one picture.
BEINART: This is what so something like this is the impact --
COOPER: That's what he's referring too, right?
BEINART: -- of Trump on you, right? You have lost the capacity to understand a basically -- distinguish basic reality from false reality. That's what's happening to our country --
LANZA: You know, hold on I will say something.
QUINN: No. No. That --
LANZA: We had the last administration look at the American people and say you can keep your doctor. Was that a lie?
QUINN: Its something that --
BEINART: Yes, it was a lie and shame on them.
LANZA: Yes. It's a lie. So let me say as president --
BEINART: I'm not saying he's the first person to ever lie in office.
QUINN: No. No. This is not so.
COOPER: We're going to take a quick break. We're going to have a palate cleanser. I'm sure --
Coming up, some new CNN polling out tonight showing voters have predictions for the 2020 presidential elections that may surprise you, maybe not.
Also later pilots saw something in the sky over the Arizona desert. The question is just, what did they see? This freaks me out. Our story is out there tonight on the 360 files.
COOPER: We have new CNN polling out about the presidential election in 2020 by a pretty significant margin a majority of American's play, President Trump will lose his re-election bid in 2020, 40 percent of those poll believe he'll win, 54 percent do not as for who will get the most votes for the democratic nomination. The polls spoke to Democrats only, 84 percent are likely to support former Vice President Joe Biden, 75 percent for Senator Bernie Sanders, 68 percent for Senator Elizabeth Warren, and 53 percent for Senator Kamala Harris, the former attorney general of California.
There's also good news for the president in this. I mean among his base there's -- you know, he's doing very well and they believe he is going to win.
[21:40:05] We should also point out for all these people who, you know, say they don't think the President is going to win, they also probably didn't think he was going to win the last time around and when these polls are done under Obama after -- during this time in his first term, most people said he wasn't going to get re-elected. The same with Clinton, most people said he wasn't going win.
QUINN: Clinton's poll I just want to note was actually done after the mid term elections.
QUINN: So I think it's noteworthy that it's a comparison to Clinton. This is done before the mid term elections. And by all indications of how the specials have been going that we Democrats are on a roll. And I think it's going --
COOPER: You feel confident as a Democrat?
QUINN: Well, I'm a New York Democrat so I never feel confident about anything, right, because it's just too high anxiety level. But I feel very good about the prospects of both taking back the House and the Senate in the midterms very good about the prospects of taking the White House. And I think --
BEINART: That this poll show is that politically Donald Trump is not in a crisis. And that I think what a lot of Democrats hope is that there will be a really bloody Republican primary in 2020 because if you look historically, presidents with tough primary challenges, you know, General Ford, George H.W. Bush tend to lose in the general election. What this poll suggests is that I think there's not likely to be a serious primary challenge because there's not a big appetite among Republican base voters for an alternative to Donald Trump. And that's why I think Donald Trump has a reasonable shot, as terrifying as it is to me, a reasonable shot of having united Republican Party behind and saw reasonable shot of getting re-elected.
MOORE: You know, it's so interesting if you look at these polls. I mean if you ask, you know, do you want Donald Trump to review or elaborate. You'll going to see those numbers you just showed. The problem for the Democrats is who is it? You know, I mean it was the same thing with Obama. You know, yes, we want somebody other than Obama but when you actually put somebody up against Obama, I think you looked at that list.
I mean, come on give me Elizabeth Warren. If I could pick anybody -- any Democrat in the United States I would want to run against that some Republican, it would be Elizabeth Warren. She's not a likable person.
I saw this on your show a few weeks ago. I do think the idea of an outsider like an Oprah Winfrey could really give Trump a run for his money, someone with celebrity status, someone who's very well liked by people, someone who's successful. One other quick thing --
QUINN: No. No. Why isn't Liz Warren likable?
MOORE: I know that --
QUINN: Trump is not likable, why? And its so curios because women are almost always called unlikable when they're --
MOORE: We agree.
QUINN: I think I'm likable. I was called unlikable and I think she's likable. So why sir do you think she's unlikable
MOORE: I think you are likable.
QUINN: Why do you think she's unlikable?
MOORE: No. She's cold. She's a cold fish.
QUINN: How do you know that? Have you spent a lot of time with her?
MOORE: Not a lot but I've met her and --
QUINN: I take offense to that characterization.
MOORE: But she is.
QUINN: She is not.
MOORE: And that was probably not Hillary. I mean she's the ups of Bill Clinton.
BEINART: It's remarkable how women tend to be like that.
QUINN: And Trump is a peach.
MOORE: He was a pretty good politician. He got to --
QUINN: That doesn't make him likable. I think it's -- I think you need to reflect. You have raised two women politicians --
MOORE: Well, one thing I'll say when I got involved with Donald Trump exactly two years ago, his chances of being president were one in 100 based on his marker. So that's, you know, that's a pretty amazing thing what he --
TOOBIN: And in that spirit, I think that poll -- those poll numbers, in general and I say this with love and affection for our colleagues in the polling unit are meaningless --
TOOBIN: -- meaningless and particularly when it comes to Democrats because we don't even know who is running.
TOOBIN: And those are just name recognition numbers. And if you take this moment before the 2008 election, Barack Obama, right? I mean you wouldn't even have gotten one percent.
BALL: Well, I mean one thing it does tell you is that Democrats have fond feelings about the figures in their party that have high name recognition, right? So someone like Joe Biden who has been in a previous administration. If there was such an anti-establishment feeling among the democratic base that they didn't want anyone who've been associated with past administrations or they've turned against Obama, I felt like that was the wrong way.
You wouldn't see Joe Biden getting those numbers. If this was so much of Bernie Sanders movement, right? The Democrats have repudiated the politicians of the past. You wouldn't see those numbers. Instead I think you see a Democratic Party that for all its faults and I think the Democratic Party is divided and is institutionally quite untabstable, you do still have a base that likes a lot of its politicians, including the ones who've been in there for a really long time. So you think that that is meaningful number.
QUINN: I like that point.
TOOBIN: Except all the women are unlikable --
TOOBIN: -- according to the Republicans here.
BALL: Well, sure. But they don't get to (INAUDIBLE) nominee.
(CROSSTALK) BEINART: I think what you can see -- I mean it's very early but Biden versus Sanders race or Biden versus Warren race will be really ideologically very interesting, right? And I think that we -- there really is a real ideological divide between those divide and the real strategic divide of how they think he win.
Now that I think what we're seeing in the polling again is early is that Biden's support is high because he's winning, he's doing very well among non-white voters. And I think one of this we still really don't know about the Bernie Sanders win and I would put Elizabeth Warren in the same category. Can they break out as he was not able to do before and actually really to compete among African-American or Latino voters? And I think that's one of the big questions in 2020.
[21:45:13] TOOBIN: And one of the things we have learned is the core of the Democratic Party are African-American women. And their votes appear, at this point, to be very much up for grabs.
COOPER: I want to thank everybody.
Coming up, the President again touts his infrastructure goals at an event in Ohio.
Meanwhile, in Martin County, Kentucky they cannot drink the water and that's not the only place. Dr. Sanjay Gupta investigates what is going on there, next.
COOPER: The President is promising a new life into what he calls America's rundown highways, railways and waterways, transforming roads and bridges as he likes to say under budget and ahead of schedule.
Now at some parts the country this is more than a speech topic desperately needed help is already way behind schedule even when it comes to most basic necessities.
[21:50:05] Our Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta has more.
SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The hills of Appalachia are part of Americans legacy. The people here in Martin County, Kentucky, proudly self sufficient, but it's hard to take care of yourself when you don't have the most basic of necessities.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So we have blue water here.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is crazy.
GUPTA: It left Hope Workman with no other choice. Twice a week, Hope and her daughter drive up this dirt path on the side of the mountain.
HOPE WORKMAN, MARTIN COUNTY RESIDENT: This is what we go through to get water. GUPTA: Twenty years ago, she pleased this three-and-a-half foot pipe into this hillside to tap a spring just to collect clean drinking water, because, obviously, no one drinks the water here.
GUPTA (on camera): Do you drink it?
GARY BALL, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "MOUNTAIN CITIZEN": Oh, no. No. No, no there's no way that I drink it.
GUPTA (voice-over): Gary Ball is the editor-in-chief of the local weekly paper the "Mountain Citizen." Water has been a front page story for most of his career.
GUPTA (on camera): What's going on here and if the citizens, the people who live here, and deal with this every day, where do they put this on their list of concerns?
G. BALL: In 2018 in a very place where every day declare the war on poverty, 54 years ago. Water is the number one issue. That's hard to imagine.
GUPTA: You declare a war on poverty? 54 years later, you come back then, you can't even reliably get clean water, what progress have they really made?
G. BALL: It's a third world country here as far as water. We let our water system dilapidate to the point of collapse.
GUPTA: You went how long without water?
WORKMAN: At that time it was 10 days.
GUPTA (voice-over): To manage that, Hope has turned her pool into a make-shift reservoir, collecting rain water for even the most basic needs.
GUPTA (on camera): In order to wash your clothes, in order to get water to bath in, this is what you have to do?
WORKMAN: Yes. I did this in 17 every winter (ph). And we had to get a chainsaw to drill through the ice.
GUPTA: Oh goodness.
WORKMAN: To get to the water.
GUPTA: So you have to chainsaw to get through the ice --
GUPTA: -- and then siphoned the water with your mouth out of the hose?
GUPTA: That's what it's come to? WORKMAN: That's what it's come to --
LINDELL ORMSBEE, DIRECTOR, KENTUCKY WATER RESPOURCES RESEARCH INSTITUTE: It's somewhat of a systematic representation of what's happening a lot of other places that no one is looking at.
GUPTA (voice-over): In fact, the American Society of Civil Engineers gives the United States drinking water infrastructure a grade of a D.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the water that's coming out of my --
GUPTA: So how does the water get so contaminated here in Martin County? It's worth looking at how we get our water. Here, it comes from the tug port river, where it is then pumped into the crumb reservoir. And from there, it makes its way to this water treatment center.
GUPTA (on camera): After getting treated about 2 million gallons per day of fairly clean water then leaves this treatment facility through a cascade of pipes traveling all over the county. The problem is, those pipes are also old and cracked. More than 50 percent of the water leaks out before it gets to the people who need it. Even worse is what's getting into those pipes and into the water.
GUPTA (voice-over): We reviewed the most repeat EPA data and the Martin County Water District has violated federal drinking water standards every quarter between October 2014 and September, 2017. In fact, until just a few months ago, the district's nearly 10,000 customers received notices that their water had exceeded federal limits for potentially cancer causing chemicals.
GUPTA (on camera): Doc, I got this thing, what am I supposed to do about it. Am I going to get cancer?
LON LAFFERTY, M.D. INEZ KENTUCKY: It's a very difficult question. I can't tell them it's safe or that isn't safe.
GUPTA (voice-over): Dr. Lon Lafferty (ph) is the quintessential small town Doc. He is pretty sure that almost every person in this county has come to see him at some point in this clinic.
LAFFERTY: We shouldn't have be asking them 2018, whether or not the water is causing cancer in our region. We should be the point in 2018 and the richest country in the history of the earth that we have clean water. It shouldn't be a question.
GUPTA (voice-over): Eastern Kentucky has some of the highest cancer rates in the country. And there's plenty of blame, smoking, obesity. But one thing stands out to many who live there, the water.
GUPTA (on camera): Is it the rain water that you are getting is better than what's coming out of your faucet?
GUPTA (voice-over): On this day, Hope is filling up three additional pots of water from her pool.
WORKMAN: It's not easy, but it leaks, not being able to flush the toilet or take a bath. I hope you see this, Mr. Trump, because I don't know who else to talk to about it. They ain't doing any damn thing.
GUPTA: President Trump released a $1.5 trillion plan to address all of the infrastructure for the whole country, but experts estimate $1 trillion alone is needed to just meet our drinking water demands for the next 25 years.
LAFFERTY: Central Appalachia at this point is being left behind. Central Appalachia certainly voted for President Trump. But we are -- we just kind of take a wait and see kind of attitude. Time will tell.
[21:55:10] GUPTA (on camera): Is water a basic human right?
G. BALL: I believe so. I believe so.
GUPTA: That's not happening here.
G. BALL: That's not happening here.
COOPER: And Sanjay joins me now. Sanjay, you said this water issue, I mean, it's not unique, where else is it happening?
GUPTA: Well, you know, if you look at this particular place in Inez, Kentucky, Martin County, it's really the mines, you know, the contamination from the mines that's getting into that water. And again, water -- it was really amazing these pipes, they're so dilapidated that 50 percent to 60 percent of the water is coming out of the pipes under ground treated water and then that other stuff is getting in.
If you go further east, North Carolina, it's coal ash that's getting into the water. If you go further west, it's nitrates from the fertilizers that's getting in. So there's many of this rural countries around the country that have problems for different reasons.
COOPER: Sanjay, interesting report. Thanks.
GUPTA: Yes, thank you.
COOPER: We'll be right back.
COOPER: This file is over, but the truth may be out there or up there in the skies over the Arizona desert. The FAA has release audio from Lear jet pilot who saw something last month and radioed the air traffic controller who told another pilot in the area to keep an eye up for anything unusual. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was anybody above us that passed like 30 seconds ago?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) negative.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Something did. A UFO.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: American 1095, let me know if you see anything pass over you here in the next 15 miles?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let you know if anything passes over?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: American 1095, affirmative. We had an aircraft in front of you, 37 that reported something pass over and then we didn't have nay targets. So just let me know if you see anything pass over to you.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
COOPER: Well, sure enough that American airlines pilot did see something. Here is that audio.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, it's American 1095. Yes, something just passed over us. I don't know what it was, but at least two-three thousand feet above us. Yes. It passed right over the top of us.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
[22:00:03] COOPER: The FAA says the controller could not verify that any other aircraft was in the area at the time. The American Airlines pilot said he wasn't sure it was a balloon, but he said it had a big reflection.
Thanks for watching "360". Time to hand it over to Don Lemon. "CNN TONIGHT" starts right now.