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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

New Search After Mysterious Crash; Million Dollar Murder Tonight; Mom Of Four Found Dead On Road. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired April 4, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[18:00:10] ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HLN HOST: Good evening everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice." Tonight authorities are

tracking the tracks of that family who flew off a California cliff and they are expanding the hunt for those three missing kids as more allegations of

child abuse begins to surface. My producer Bernice Man has been covering the story, Bernice?

BERNICE MAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Ashleigh, we will tell you how police determined the family`s approximate travel route, where one of the

moms who spotted on surveillance and we uncovered even more allegations of abuse dating back to 2008.

BANFIELD: I will check in with you on that in a moment. Also tonight, the young man accused of killing his own grandfather and leaving his mother out

at sea. Did he stand to gain millions in inheritance? Kyle Peltz, is on that story, Kyle?

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: That`s right. This man owned family is accusing him of murder and they are hauling in to court after for

what`s called a slayer action against him.

BANFIELD: I can`t wait to find out about that. Thank you Kyle. Also, an answer after a stunning young mother of four little boys was found riddled

with bullets from the side of the road. Someone has now been arrested. Our Justin Fryman (ph) and her father are going to join us tonight.

Justin, he is sounding off about this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That is right. The father of this beautiful young mom, said she`d only just recently met the man who is accused of killing her.

And the reason why he allegedly did it according to police, that will shock you.

BANFIELD: And how about the little boys too? We are going to find out about that as well. Thank you all. First, the pieces are starting to come

together tonight for the investigators who had been desperate to figure out how that family flew off that cliff in California and whether it was on

purpose.

Three kids and their moms were found dead and three other kids are still missing tonight. And this has now been over a week. The searchers are

still scanning that crash site today. But tonight we have an idea of exactly where they were and what they were up to just before that road trip

ended in tragedy.

Because one of the moms was caught on camera right here at this California check-out counter seemingly buying fruit snacks for her kids, the very

morning they went off that cliff. And based on apparent pings from cell phones, investigators have laid out a massive part of their travel route.

They think the family or at least five member of that Washington family drove down south from a town in Oregon, hundreds of miles down the coast to

a town in California, where they spent about 24 mysterious hours.

After that, the drive continued straight to that cliff-like pull out where they may have stopped 70 feet before taking that plunge. With me, Shane

Kavanaugh, staff writer for the Oregonian, Mendocino County Sheriff Tom Allman and defense attorney, Randy Zelin. Sheriff, I want to begin with

you. We are starting to get at least a picture of where these family was before this horrible accident. Is that helping you in any way to figure

out why the accident happened and where those three missing kids are?

SHERIFF TOM ALLMAN, MENDOCINO COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: Well, it certainly helping us determine the route. I`m to the point where I am no longer

calling this an accident. I`m calling it a crime. And we -- the fact that the grocery store did have her own video buying multiple fruit pieces,

multiple bananas, it all leads us to believe that she was at least buying some food for her family. And Ashleigh, we haven`t released the name of

the driver, but I`m prepared to do that. I just got to a phone with the CHP commander and Jennifer, the same woman that was in the video from the

grocery store is the woman that we believe was driving the vehicle when it crashed.

BANFIELD: Sheriff, that is so distressing on so many levels. Jennifer Hart, the driver also pictured here in the super market, who would know? I

mean, who would think anything looking at this picture and it just seems so normal. A mom buying bananas for the kids and getting back into the SUV.

Can I ask you, do we know this, because they were found strapped in those seatbelts in the crash site?

ALLMAN: That is correct. The two adults were seat belted and the children were not seat belted in.

BANFIELD: I know this is going to be a difficult question to answer, because the forensics obviously take time, but is there any indication that

there was a struggle between Sarah in the passenger seat and Jennifer in the driver`s seat?

ALLMAN: We asked that question from our pathologist, but we haven`t got the result, but there is many other questions we are asking, you know, was

everybody alive when they went off the cliff? That`s the question we don`t know yet. So, these are all pieces that are coming together. Today a

citizen found a cell phone in the area, alongside the road that we -- that had been wet. We sent it in for forensics to see if we can determine that

was one of the Hart`s cell phone.

And also a citizen reported several miles south of this location, like in the area of 30 or 40 miles south seem something in the ocean that looked

like it had clothes on it. We had dive teams in the water immediately. And we are rushing to find out what we can, because, Ashleigh, we have a

storm coming in to the Pacific Coast right now, in the next five days, we expect to get between five to seven inches of rain and we are going to have

some high waves. So we are doing everything we can, we have over 80 searchers out there today to follow-up any lead we have and to get as much

information as we can before the storm hits.

BANFIELD: So, Sheriff, the storm is coming, that is definitely a huge difficulty as though you don`t already have a huge difficulty with that

roiling surf and those sea patterns as well. But I am learning at the search area has gone south of the crash area and you tell me if I`m wrong

here, but from Nao Harbor the --

ALLMAN: MacKerricher State Park, yes.

BANFIELD: OK so, tell me about why that is the zone of interest now.

ALLMAN: Because we are looking at the ocean flows and we are looking at where the waves were going and the time that is come in. This time has

happened, it`s been a week and a day since they were found, it could had been a week and two days since the car went over, because we still don`t

have an exact time that when the car went over the cliff. So, we are looking on that, we are still hoping that there is going to be a citizen

out there that remembers seeing them at a gas station or someplace.

Thank goodness for the grocery store video. It certainly allowed us to get some more information on that. We are hoping that someone saw something.

This is a very unique family. It takes much more than one tank of gas to get from Portland down to my county. So, I know they stopped somewhere and

I`m hoping someone says, yes, I remember seeing that family and we haven`t got any credit card information yet, but we are still searching.

BANFIELD: The credit card information will likely yield something if it does comes in at all. I mean, who knows that they were using them, but

there she was at the check-out. And like I said before, yes, they are unusual, Sheriff, but my god, that scene is so typical for a morning where

a mom is at a super market buying bananas. Just nothing stands out about that. Let me put up those numbers real quickly in case anybody watching

right now is peeked by this image or is peek by this, the vehicle that they were driving. By the way, that vehicle is a -- a GMC Yukon. It`s big.

You know, it`s a big old SUV. It`s not your typical -- it`s just, you know, it`s the same like a suburban, they are huge, there are seven

passengers often, it was greyish in color. This one is a replica. The one that they were driving had black rims.

That also stands out. Beveled, silver-ish grey SUV with black rims. That stands out, especially if you got potentially three to six kids in the back

and two moms. Here are the numbers Sheriff, I am putting up on the screen, two different ways that you can call. If you want to talk to somebody

about what you saw, 707-463-4086, but if you just want to be anonymous and leave a tip, 707-234-21000 and Sheriff to the tip, I understand that they

have been really coming in. Am I right? 50-ish?

ALLMAN: We have a little less than 50. Some of them have been a wild goose chase, you know, and some of them are psychic and so forth that law

enforcement always gets when this situations occur, but we are trying to prioritize and follow-up the most credible tips possible. And I`m very

comfortable that the lieutenant I have in charge in this is doing the right way of prioritizing.

BANFIELD: So real quickly, just a bit to the -- to the trek that we have now been able to pinpoint on a map since I spoke with you, you know, just,

you know, a matter of -- was it yesterday or the day before --

ALLMAN: It is.

BANFIELD: -- two days ago. So in the last two days since we spoke with you, we have at least been able to do these pinpoints on the map from

Newport up in Oregon down the coast all the way to Fort Bragg with a stop in between, right. Where was the -- no, the stop was at Fort Bragg for

about 24 hours from Saturday, March 24th, 8:00 p.m. to Sunday, March 25th at 9:00 p.m. So they spent a fair amount of time in Fort Bragg. Anybody

in that area, you know, you might have noticed this unusual family, this modern family, this vehicle. But does that route tell you anything? These

-- that is 400 miles or so isn`t it?

ALLMAN: Well, and what`s really strange here Ashleigh is, after Fort Bragg, they actually drove north 30 miles before the accident occurred.

BANFIELD: So, what does that tell you? That is a very strange sort of pattern.

ALLMAN: As I said two days ago, there are many questions on this that we are never going to have answered. We are searching and we`re trying to

come up with clues, because there are families and there`s neighbors, there are loved ones who say, really and truly what happened. And law

enforcement here obvious to get these answers through them, and we still have other calls that we are handling, you know, I`m so thankful that we

have the volunteer firemen who got involved and the first responders we pulled the bodies out. I`m very appreciative. We still have other calls

that we are working on and we have a cohesive team right and we are trying to just take care of everything the way it happens.

BANFIELD: So you are looking into that cellphone that was found, you are following up on that tip of the witness who said, he or she saw clothing

floating in the water, correct?

[18:10:00] ALLMAN: Correct, that`s correct.

BANFIELD: Nothing concrete there though right?

ALLMAN: Correct.

BANFIELD: So, don`t go anywhere. Sheriff if you can, I want to bring Shane Kavanaugh into the story, because there`s this whole other aspect to

this mystery and that was, what was happening before that route was plotted on the map. And there was a lot happening, Shane, there`s material from

2008, there`s material from 2010, 2011 all having to do with domestic violence. Can you just sort out for me, what we know?

SHANE KAVANAUGH, STAFF WRITER, THE OREGONIAN: Yes, absolutely, Ashleigh. Back in -- we have been able to uncover police reports in Minnesota where

the family lived a number of years ago. Abuse allegation reports investigate by police going back to 2008, where one of the Hart`s children

had said that their mother, Jennifer, had struck her with a belt, causing a pretty sizable bruise on her arm, at that time --

BANFIELD: Shane -- Shane, that is Jennifer. Jennifer has now been -- it`s just been released by the sheriff, if anyone is just joining us, It has now

been determined Jennifer is the driver. Jennifer is the driver, who took that SUV off of the cliff. So you are saying the 2008 acquisition from

little Hannah, then 6 years old was about Jennifer?

KAVANAUGH: Correct. And I will also point out there was a second abuse investigation in 2010 by Abigail --

BANFIELD: Wow.

KAVANAUGH: -- another daughter who is also 6 in 2010. This one was more perplexing, because Abigail had told authorities that she was struck by her

mother, Jennifer. Again, same mother. And submerged under cold water as punishment for misbehaving. However, Jennifer`s wife, Sarah ultimately

said that she was responsible for the abuse and she was ultimately convicted of a crime in 2011.

BANFIELD: Interesting. Abigail said that it was Jennifer who did it again and Jennifer is the driver who went off the cliff. And we are now -- the

Sheriff said, it is not an accident, it is now an intentional, he believes this was a crime, but Sarah took the hit for it, Sarah took the wrath, she

pleaded to it, correct? On the probation agreement?

KAVANAUGH: Correct. Sarah pleaded guilty in 2011 to misdemeanor domestic abuse.

BANFIELD: And there is something else here. Something else in the whole other jurisdiction. You just recounted the 2011 -- 2010-2011 incident,

then in 2013, they appeared to have moved from Minnesota to Westland, Oregon and no stranger to the police in Westland, Oregon either, they said

they got some kind of a referral from the Oregon Department of Human Services. Do you know any about that?

KAVANAUGH: Yes, what it appears is that a friend of the family in 2013 filed a report with child protective services in Oregon, because they were

concerned about the way in which the children were being treated and was concerned that the children might had been denied food as a form of

punishment which is something that came up later on as well as a frequent form of alleged punishment to these children`s face.

BANFIELD: Extremely distressing, but I mean, clearly Shane, we are seeing a pattern here. 2008 abuse from a child who was 6. 2010 and 2011,

Abigail, another child who is 6, reporting abuse, again the same mom, Jennifer. Factoring in both of these stories, Jennifer, Sheriff now

confirming at the wheel of the -- I guess is it fair to say the murder vehicle, Sheriff at this point?

ALLMAN: Certainly the vehicle was used in a crime and I am going to be -- having our district attorney review everything we have, when all the paper

works comes in, before I am going to call it a murder, but I think, that you are on the right track, Ashleigh.

BANFIELD: I want to put up that tip line just before we go to break again, 707-463-4086 for people who want to talk to dispatch and explain something,

those who want to leave an anonymous tip, don`t want to have anything to do with it, fine. It is just important to get the information that no tip is

too small, 707-234-2100 and Sheriff, let`s hope that those tips go from 50 to a higher and maybe more solid number that yields actual information that

you can actually act on and put more pieces of the puzzle together. And we will check in with you as well.

Sheriff Tom Allman, thank you. Shane Kavanaugh, thank you. Randy Zelnin, I will get you to stay. I have a couple of other stories that I need you

to weigh in on as well. His grandfather was murder and then his mom disappeared at sea, and that is tragic, but Nathan Carman`s family is now

doing a whole lot of finger-pointing about who is responsible and some of those fingers are aimed at Nathan, who could rake in a huge chunk of the

$44 million inheritance that is just out there floating.

And also, you can now listen to our show any time. Download our podcast on Apple Podcast, IHeartRadio, Stitcher, TuneIn or wherever you get your

podcasts for your "Crime and Justice" fix.

[18:15:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: When Nathan Carman heard that he had been hit with a slayer action, he probably knew right away that this is no video game. Just

because the 24-year-old is accused of killing his own grandfather before his mother went mysteriously missing at sea. And it`s his own family is

doing the accusing. And that legal action that they filed is called a slayer action. It is sounds mean, but make no mistake, it is strategic.

More on that in a moment.

First, why Nathan is even in this pickle in the first place. Police say that Nathan was the last person to be seen with his grandfather. A wealthy

real estate developer, said to be worth over $40 million. That grandpa was found shot to death in his bed. And Nathan also happened to be the last

person seen with his mother, who happened to disappear on a fishing trip that she took with Nathan nearly three years later. A woman who might have

inherited a very big chunk of those millions. But Nathan survived the sinking fishing boat and he was found alone floating on a life raft after

spending a week at sea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN CARMAN, SUSPECT: I feel healthy. I`m feel healthy. Emotionally I have been through a huge amount. I would just like to thank the public for

their prayers and for their concern for both my mother and for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Now that Nathan stands to gain those millions, his aunts are asking a Judge to keep him away from his grandfather`s money. Hence the

request of that slayer action. It would mean the court would call him a murderer. He`s reported to refuse a polygraph test and he might seem

unusual in court. He shows up solo and he is representing himself, even though he`s only 24. He also just might have Asperger`s syndrome. And

whether he`s killed off his own family or survive some serious trauma. This is the question they are asking in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMAN: I was lost at sea and my mom died. It would be great to have people embracing you, saying we are glad you are home, we are glad you are

alive and also helping me to deal with my mom`s death. It hasn`t been that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, James Walsh, a reporter for New York Magazine, he is the author of "Playing against the House, a dramatic world of an

undercover union organizer." Defense Attorney, Randy Zelin is still with me and on the phone, Daniel Small, he is the attorney for those aunts of

Nathan Carman. Also with me is Pat Hayes, she is the mother of two sons with Asperger`s and the author of the book "My tears in his bottle."

James, let me begin with you, if I can. The issue of Asperger`s, we say may have Asperger`s. He was diagnosed.

JAMES WALSH, REPORTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Yes, his farther confirmed that he was diagnosed with Asperger as a kid.

BANFIELD: Is this seem to be the central part of the case as to whether his unusual demeanor, the spidey senses that maybe the police have when

they began to interviewed and kick in, is it because of his demeanor?

WALSH: I wouldn`t say that, I mean police did go through a number of trails and they spoke with a doctor to make sure that they were conducting

the case about the evidence and not about Nathan`s demeanor. I think, there is a lot more smoke around what Nathan did and there is around just

of the way he carries himself.

BANFIELD: And to be clear, the police, it wasn`t like they didn`t know that there was something different about this young man. They hired an

expert and one of the agencies doing the investigation, hired an expert in Asperger`s, so that they wouldn`t misinterpret any of the signs when they

talked to him.

WALSH: That is right. That is right and they knew Nathan was fully functioning, you know, he lived alone, he drives, he goes out on the boat.

It`s really just the way, you know, growing up, he had a hard time making friends like many kids on the spectrum.

BANFIELD: And a lot of kids in high school had a lot to say about him.

WALSH: Sure, a lot of kid in high school, some of them called him sweet and some of them said he was very polite, but others said he would

sometimes lash out at teachers, it`s going to be hubers (ph) about him. He always believes, he is the smartest person in the room and often times he

is. But he had no problems yelling at teachers or -- another student described throwing stuff to the side when he --

BANFIELD: Same as he -- he had a tough time coping when he was challenged. His coping mechanism failed when he was challenged in high school. And

then there is also a report as a child, he held another child hostage with a knife.

WALSH: Right. That didn`t did show up in a police report, I wasn`t able to speak to anybody to confirm that, but police reports did say he held a

knife to a child and then went further to say that he had psychotic episodes as a teenager in high school.

BANFIELD: So ABC News said in this interview with him, a sit down interview, reporter Lindsey Janice, asked a number of questions of Nathan

Carman. It didn`t go well. He got very upset and he walked out. I mean, he came back eventually, but you can get a sense of his personality from

this interview. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another thing that happened, since the last get together, police searched your mom`s home. She know anything about that?

CARMAN: We are done for this evening, period. We are done here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are not trying to make you uncomfortable. We are trying to give you an opportunity to answer some of these allegations.

CARMAN: We are done here this evening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that gives you a bit of the taste of at least, you know, how things go when you challenge him. It didn`t go -- like I said, he came

back to do the interview. Let`s talk a little bit about the other stuff you said. It`s not so much about the demeanor, it is more about the stuff,

the evidence. And lets us be clear, he hasn`t been charged with either of these situations. One is a definite homicide and the other one we don`t

know where mom is. She was never found, but there were -- the grandfather was killed with -- three bullets and he bought a gun.

WALSH: Right. Investigators discovered about six months after the murder that Nathan had purchased a rifle, the 308 matching the caliber of the

wounds --

BANFIELD: They can`t find it?

WALSH: They asked Nathan about it and they say -- they asked Nathan about it and he said he lost it.

BANFIELD: And the aunt said he lost it, too.

WALSH: Right.

BANFIELD: That is a big --

WALSH: The smoking gun.

BANFIELD: -- the smoking gun literally. He had dinner with his grandfather allegedly the night he die and did not show up for a scheduled

meeting with his mom the next morning, is that correct?

WALSH: he didn`t show up on time. They did go fishing the next morning, they were fishing, while investigators were at the scene of the murder.

BANFIELD: Not -- not the ominous fishing trip back in three years later where he was doing repairs on the boat.

WALSH: Correct.

BANFIELD: I think he took the --

WALSH: Correct.

BANFIELD: Trim tabs off and then sealed it with marine putty and off they went fishing and low and behold the boat sank.

WALSH: Right.

BANFIELD: Somehow he gets a life raft with food and water and a week later, he found that mom -- somehow he has no idea where she disappeared to

that boat was sinking. Then there`s the hard drive in the computer. What was that story?

WALSH: Investigators searched his apartment after his grandfather`s murder and they couldn`t find a hard drive and a GPS that he had had at the time

of the murder. That was kind of another key piece of evidence that has gone missing along with the gun, along with the boat -- these gaps.

BANFIELD: And inconsistencies too, stories that are still -- do we know what the inconsistencies are that the police are referencing when they say

that?

WALSH: Sure. I mean, he doesn`t really answer these questions. Whenever he is pressed about these things, he sort of acts the way we saw in that.

BANFIELD: Well, that again -- that could be that the condition that he suffers that is not easy to communicate and maybe that is part of it. Hold

that thought for a moment. Daniel Small, I want you to jump in this conversation if I can, you are representing the oncomouse case (ph). Have

they always have a problem with Nathan or have these issues surfaced since grandfather and mom, mom presumably dead, grandfathers definitely dead, did

the issues surfaced then?

DANIEL SMALL, ATTORNEY FOR AUNTS OF NATHAN CARMAN: Well, Nathan is always had problems with violence and temper, but obviously the family didn`t

realize that he was a killer until after his grandfather was murdered. Nathan was the last person to see his grandfather and he refused to tell

the police about the gun that could be the murder weapon. He failed -- he refused to take a lie detector test and now he`s claiming the Fifth

Amendment, refusing to answer basic questions about that gun that he bought claiming that truthful answers would incriminate him.

BANFIELD: And to be really clear, your client have a dog in the fight, $42 to $44 million by my estimate, that is up for grabs that, you know, John

Chakalos, had earn and when he died, it became the inheritance of his children, your client and obviously Nathan`s mom who is no longer there, so

Nathan. So, is this about the millions and I don`t know if it was to be divided up evenly, let us say $11 million per person, but is it about the

millions? Did they not -- did they want his millions, did the not want him to have his millions, what is it?

SMALL: No, Ashleigh. It is actually not about money, the family wants justice, they don`t want money, they have said since day one, if this has a

result of the litigation, there is money that`s freed up, that money is pledge to charity in the name of Linda Carman. This is blood money.

Nathan Carman is desperate to get it and the family simply does not want it to go in that direction, but the family wants no part of the blood money.

BANFIELD: OK. A little -- I want to play a little bit more of Nathan in his own voice. This is Nathan presumably on a rescue ship after that week

at sea on the radio to the U.S. Coast Guard. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMAN: There was a funny noise in the engine compartment. I walked inside and saw a lot of water, I was bringing one of the safety vest

forward, the boat stropped out under my feet, when I saw a life raft, I did not seen my mom, have you found her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we haven`t been able to find her yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Pat Hayes (ph), I want you to jump in with me here. A lot of people have made a lot of hay about his demeanor, his slot aspect, his dead

gaze and of course this voice after being in a week, is he losing your mom, just being so methodical. With two children of your own with Asperger`s,

can you help me sort through that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. (inaudible) basically and it sounded like he is reading a script, has memorized or something, because a lot of times people

with Asperger, they sort through things in their mind and they talk about them in a way that shows no emotion.

And so for him to not be sad that his grandfather is dead or that his mother is missing, it kind of misses the whole point about Asperger`s,

because we that are neurotypical, we experience things in different ways than a person with Asperger does.

BANFIELD: Randy Zelin, jump in there, if you could. You are hearing Pat describing this. You know, deceit and avoidance. That`s kind of the way of

communication with Asperger as opposed to we assume that means criminal.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I sit here and I`m dumbfounded. I don`t even know where to begin. There is not enough time. Starting with, who is

allowing this young man with Asperger or not to represent himself --

BANFIELD: Yes.

ZELIN: -- when he is a suspect in a murder case? Has someone has not stopped the parallel civil proceeding where he is burying himself?

BANFIELD: Agree.

ZELIN: When there is a criminal case that he could be hit with. He is being taken advantage of. You have lawyers on TV saying, he`s already a

killer. Who decided that?

BANFIELD: You know, I`m with you. I agree. This shouldn`t happen. Look, I have seen people represent themselves who never ever should have done so

and it`s a tricky wicket for a judge to walk. But at the same time, it`s the Windsor, Connecticut police who still say he is still a suspect in the

death of dad or granddad. So I agree.

I think it`s shocking that a man like that -- he says it`s because he has no money. He is hoping to sell a house or do something with his house to

get money and get an attorney. But I think you made a great point. Let`s stay on the story. I hope you will come back again. It`s good reporting.

And Randy, I`m going to get you to weigh in on a couple of others as well. My thanks to James (ph) and also to Daniel Small (ph) for joining us. And

to Pat Hays as well.

Tonight, a verdict, after a beautiful San Diego woman was found naked and bound and gagged and hanging from the balcony of her boyfriend`s mansion.

After six and a half years of investigators insisting that Rebecca Zahau somehow did that all to herself, a jury decided otherwise. They said that

her boyfriend`s brother, Adam Shacknai, is actually responsible and they are holding him liable for her death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Did Adam Shacknai touch Rebecca Zahau before Rebecca Zahau`s death with the intent to harm her? The answer is

yes. Was Rebecca Zahau harmed before her death by Adam? The answer is yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Her family has now been awarded $5 million in damages. Shacknai was the only other person on the grounds that day. The case took a stunning

twist the other day during a demonstration of how Rebecca was found hanging and it was very literal in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is very close to where she was hanging. He doesn`t come over here and check her, shake her, say are you alive? What does he

do? Panic attack. He calls 911.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So disturbing to see that image of what really would look like Rebecca in that way. That`s exactly how she was found, by the way, naked,

hanging like that. Adam Shacknai`s brother, Jonah, who was dating Rebecca, testified at the trial that it was inconceivable his brother played any

role in her death. The jury did not buy it. I want to be clear here, though.

That civil case and neither of the Shacknai brothers is a suspect at this point or has been charged with any kind of murder. That was simply civil

but it did not go their way.

A young mother gunned down and left to die on the side of a road, now an arrest in that murder, but what is the connection between this 20-year-old

mother of four little kids and her accused killer?

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: First impressions are everything. And one man in San Antonio may have passed the test the first time, but he is not going to get a second

chance, at least with the De La Cruz family. Because after he reportedly picked up 20-year-old Brianna and even met her grandma, police say he shot

her to death and then dumped her bullet-ridden body on the side of the road. A mother to four little boys. Four boys. All under the age of five.

Tonight, four little boys all without a mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was 20 years old. She was a baby. She always looked out for the ones she loves.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, Brianna`s father, David De La Cruz, defense attorney Randy Zelin.

[18:40:01] First, I want to go to investigative reporter and syndicated radio host, Kate Delaney. Kate, we are learning a lot more from the arrest

affidavit of exactly what this suspect was up to, Kedreen Pugh. Tell me what they found out.

KATE DELANEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST (via telephone): Interesting, about his background. Number one, he`s a

documented member of the blood criminal street gang and he is considered to be an ongoing threat, Ashleigh, to anyone who would cooperate in the

investigation, of course he has been arrested.

And supposedly what a witness is saying is that Kedreen shot Brianna because she had stolen money from him and he also said that he would have

gone back to pop her a couple more times. So it`s pretty --

BANFIELD: Kate, that is so disturbing, to think a mother of four, by the way, a 20-year-old mother of four, a headline in itself was still alive

apparently when the first witness spotted her on the side of the road. What happened? How is it that they couldn`t rescue her?

DELANEY (via telephone): What happened was that somebody went by and the tractor-trailer could not turn around. Called in. And then by the time they

got there, EMS arrived and tried to help her, they found that she was already deceased.

But again the driver believed that she was crawling which would explain why she was half in the street and half out and that she was alive.

BANFIELD: Oh, God. There are so many pieces of evidence that the police have been able to gather from witnesses and from the scene. Let`s start

with the person who came to pick her up. The next of kin saying it was a black male with an unknown Hispanic female, which I have heard no more

reporting on, that person. But they were in a red four-door Nissan. What kind of car does Kedreen own?

DELANEY (via telephone): He owns a Nissan, doesn`t he? And they found that out when it was in the database when they looked him up.

BANFIELD: OK. So the next of kin said that Brianna recently stayed at a Studio 6 Motel on Highway 90. And where did Kedreen rent a room?

DELANEY (via telephone): Highway 90 at that motel.

BANFIELD: OK. So now we -- we say witness says he had a TEC-9 pistol. Is that what we are finding out was the weapon in this case?

DELANEY (via telephone): Yes, the witnesses say that he had a TEC-9 nine millimeter pistol, walking around with it.

BANFIELD: OK. Also witnesses say that Kedreen was open about this. He actually came back and bragged about it. What did he say to these people?

DELANEY (via telephone): He said what I mentioned before, that she had stolen money. And that if he could go back, he would do that, he would shot

her a few more times. He said that he shot her, but he didn`t do it because the sun was about to come up.

BANFIELD: This is so distressing. I mean there is just so much evidence against this man. Let me bring in David De La Cruz. David, first and

foremost, I am so sorry for your loss. Your daughter --

DAVID DE LA CRUZ, FATHER OF BRIANNA DE LA CRUZ: Thank you.

BANFIELD: She is stunning. She is beautiful. And now she has four little children under the age of five who don`t have a mom. First and foremost,

where are they and how are they?

DE LA CRUZ: The three boys are with me. Elijah, Jeremiah, and Isaiah. And the youngest child is four months. He`s with his father, Paul Salinas (ph).

BANFIELD: Do they know? Do they know about what happened to their mom, David?

DE LA CRUZ: They don`t know. They used to seeing her every day. I just don`t have the heart to tell them yet. When they get older, I will tell

them. But I don`t think I would let them see her like that.

BANFIELD: Are they asking about mom?

DE LA CRUZ: Yes.

BANFIELD: What are they saying?

DE LA CRUZ: They constantly asking for mama. Every day. Before they sleep, they are asking for their mother. And I just tell them that she is resting

right now. We will see her soon.

BANFIELD: David, did you ever get a look at this Kedreen Pugh, the man they arrested for your daughter`s murder, did you get a look at him?

DE LA CRUZ: No, not in person. I didn`t.

BANFIELD: I understand that someone in your family did, correct?

DE LA CRUZ: Correct. I work at the time, but my mother was at home with the kids. Brianna came by and brought him by and wanted my mother to meet

him.

BANFIELD: This was the new boyfriend, right? Like she had only known him a couple of weeks, correct?

DE LA CRUZ: Right. She told my mother that he was obsessed with her and buying her gifts and in love with her.

BANFIELD: And so that was it. The night -- the day that grandma had met this man was the last day she would see her granddaughter alive. David,

thank you for being with us. Again, I am so sorry for your loss.

[18:45:00] Your daughter was just simply lovely and beautiful and those children are beautiful. I wish you and your family the best as you navigate

the road ahead of you. It will not be an easy one.

DE LA CRUZ: Thank you very much.

BANFIELD: Randy Zelin, I want you to weigh in just quickly. That is a lot of evidence. Again, with the background he has got and the bloods and all

that evidence against him, do you see the defense here?

ZELIN: Well, first of all, you have to and I know it`s difficult, but from a criminal defense standpoint, remove his background, because right now his

background is not necessarily relevant. How is the conversation going if he is not an alleged member of a gang? What do you have?

You have a relationship. You don`t have any other signs of violence. You have no witnesses coming forward about some motive. What we have are people

who could be cooperators. They could have their own motivation for saying what they`re saying.

We don`t know whether these people are reliable. This guy who is a member of a gang is telling everybody who will listen, by the way, I`m the guy who

did it. Doesn`t really fit the profile. We don`t have ballistics. We don`t have --

BANFIELD: Let`s wait on those ballistics. I think that is going to be a big part of this. There is another big part of the story. David De La Cruz

who was talking about his daughter hasn`t yet told the second part of the story. And the second part of the story started when she was just a young

kid. It is equally sad. We are going to talk about that right after the break.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We are still talking about the young Texas mother found shot to death, riddled with bullets on the roadside. A man arrested and charged

with her murder, but he is not the first man to be arrested for hurting Brianna De La Cruz.

Because Brianna just 20 years old when she died with four little boys of her own under the age of five. Brianna was actually abducted herself when

she was 12. Her dad, David De La Cruz, is still with me.

David, what was the story? What happened to Brianna when she was 12?

DE LA CRUZ: Well, she had spent the night at a friend`s house, a friend that she went to school with. Her mom and I were real close friends. I

allowed Brianna to spent the night. She would walk out of the park with this friend.

Park was nearby by this family friend`s house. And they met -- this guy by the name of George picked them up. He tried to take my daughter`s friend as

well but my daughter got away and he ended up taking my daughter all the way to Indiana. I was not aware of where she was at for two years.

BANFIELD: And George is now in prison as I understand for this.

DE LA CRUZ: He is in federal prison.

BANFIELD: He is in federal prison for how long?

DE LA CRUZ: He is in there for five years. I`m sorry, 17 years. I`m sorry.

BANFIELD: Wow. That`s a serious sentence. He abducted her at the age of 12. How long did he keep her?

DE LA CRUZ: Like I said, it was about two years.

BANFIELD: He at the time was a family friend or just a friend of hers?

DE LA CRUZ: No, he was not a friend of the family. He wasn`t a friend of hers either. He just took her. We didn`t know him. He didn`t know her from

previous engagement or anything. He just took her from there.

BANFIELD: So you have lived through this tragedy of trying to track her down for years and --

DE LA CRUZ: Right.

BANFIELD: And then finding her, rescuing her, going through a sentence, a trial and a sentence of George --

DE LA CRUZ: Right.

BANFIELD: -- only now to be in the situation you are currently in. Again, my heart goes out to you, David. Thank you so much for sharing Brianna`s

story with us. Best of luck to you as the trial ahead is likely to be very difficult. David De La Cruz, joining us, father of Brianna De La Cruz.

DE LA CRUZ: Thank you.

BANFIELD: Good luck to those four children as well.

You might think that prison inmates have been stripped of pretty much all of their rights, right? But the right to a big scoop of beans, literally,

beans at the lunch counter, one inmate in Michigan is taking it pretty seriously. And wait until you hear the case he is bringing before a judge.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Got one more thing for you tonight. You wouldn`t think that getting a small serving of beans is anything to sue someone over, but if

you are counting on a big serving in the prison lunch line, you just might.

I want to you see James Maben. He is actually in a lawsuit, corrections officer in Michigan facing $260,000 after the inmate was short changed on

his beans. When the inmate complained about a serving, corrections officer Maben says -- or rather Maben says the officer gave him a misconduct

ticket, claiming that the inmate cursed and yelled at him.

He says the inmate says his First Amendment rights had been violated in that (inaudible) line. Actually the guy who served the beans agreed.

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: Not bad, he said. A federal appeals judge agreed too, ruling that this case has merit it can proceed. Really? So you have to wonder what

the signers of the constitution would have to say about this one.

[19:00:01] And my thinking is if not beans (inaudible).

(LAUGHTER)

BANFIELD: (inaudible), doesn`t it? Next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They sped off a cliff and plunged to their death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was pinned at 90 miles per hour.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now investigators know what this family was doing in the miles and miles leading up to the crash.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She appears to be buying bananas and some other items.

And more allegations of child abuse are surfacing as researchers double down by land, air, and sea to find three kids missing over a week later.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The best news we say is that they were not even in the car.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And meet the young man representing himself against his own three aunts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We tried two murder cases here or are we trying one?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They say he killed his grandpa before his mom went mysteriously missing. And now he stands to inherit millions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is blood money. The sisters don`t want it, but they don`t want Nathan to have it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He insists he is innocent and hasn`t been charged with a crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are trying to determine that it`s difficult to repeat the allegations, but if I killed my mom or not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But will his silence and his unusual way cost him in court?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I plead the fifth relating to (inaudible).

Her dad said they met a new guy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She knew a lot of people and a lot of people knew her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A couple of weeks later, she was dead. A stunning young mother of four little boys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She doesn`t deserve this. She is 20 years old. She is a baby.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: her dad joins us tonight with question and answers. How was his daughter shot dead and dumped on the side of the road?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the time, all the time, there are people pass by just testing the guns.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She wanted to be found.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

It was a scene that understandably went un-notice. Didn`t turn a head. A mom in a grocery checked out Sunday morning buying healthy snacks for the

kids. A mom then walking back out to the big family in the big Yukon as they continued on a road trip.

But this photo, this picture you are looking at is now turning a lot of heads right across the country. Because tonight, we have learned that mom

in the picture was just hours away from driving her entire family off of a cliff in that great big Yukon vehicle. Or was it the entire family that

crash landed on the rocky coast 100 feet below, a crashed that claimed at least five lives and three are still missing.

The investigators say, she may have driven off that cliff on purpose. But they are holding out hope to three of those six kids are still alive

somewhere. That they have been able to track them everywhere is amazing. Tracking that family where they went before that death dive. They were

seemingly on a weekend, west coast road trip, hoping up in Oregon on Saturday and making it to California that night where the Hart family would

spent a full day before driving to the place where that they would die.

With me on the phone now, Lynn Smith, anchor for HLN`s WEEKEND EXPRESS. Defense attorney Randy Zelin is with me as well.

But I want to begin with Mendocino County sheriff Tom Allman who has been working the story tirelessly along with your - all of your coworkers and

colleagues and folks in law enforcement.

Sheriff, just start with the breaking news. You now know definitively and can release who the driver of that vehicle was.

SHERIFF TOM ALLMAN, MENDOCINO COUNTY POLICE DEPARTMENT: I can, Ashleigh. And Jennifer Hart was the driver of that vehicle. And that is coming from

highway patrol. I mean, she was the one that you saw in the footage from the grocery store there buying fruit for hopefully the children.

BANFIELD: So take me from there and the track that you have been able to pinpoint on the map where they went, including that ominous photograph in

the grocery store and what you think it means?

ALLMAN: Well, I`m not a sociologist, but I have certainly been in the business for a while. It certainly means that they came to the county

hopefully to be tourists and something happened. And as I said, the crash scene has unfortunately become a crime scene and we are going forward with

investigating the fact of could this be an intentional act? Could this be eight people who perished in a tragic accident or is this situation where

we have one suicide and seven homicides and where are those three kids? We don`t know. We are searching the water, of course, with divers and with

helicopters. We are searching campgrounds of any area in out county. We have a very large county, 3400 square miles. And we certainly have a lot

of places where cars can pull out and people can hide. So we are searching that area. And we are certainly searching the electronic data, the phone

pinging and the credit card purchases they made, gas purchases. We are looking for all that information.

[19:05:27] BANFIELD: So you are still creating maps even as we speak. The track that we have been able to now established since you and I spoke last

on Monday, is very significant. That is the development in this mystery. But you are still putting together the pieces of where they went and what

they did, correct?

ALLMAN: Of course we are. And fortunately, we have the Cook County sheriff`s office in Washington. We have the Portland police department

working with the CPS team up there. We have a California highway patrol, one of the most professional law enforcement agencies in the nation if not

the world. And then working with our detectives. And everybody is working together on this. We served multiple search warrants. And are continuing

to ask the public if anybody saw this family along the route you just displayed on the TV, give us a call. You have the numbers, Ashleigh. And

then you can put them up in a minute. But we are looking for someone who can say yes, they definitely saw this family. And they were getting gas.

One of the things we don`t know, Ashleigh, is what time the traffic accident or the crime occurred. Because it was unwitnessed. The passer-by

that pulled out in the dirt (ph) section, they were the ones who reported it to us a week and a day ago last Monday.

So we are hoping that somebody could help with the timeline a little bit more so that we can continue to piece together the puzzle.

BANFIELD: So as we show the wrecked out car, it is hard to see what it looked like when it is upside down. But we have an image that vehicle and

what it was looked like. It is not the exact vehicle. We don`t have that. But we have the replica minus the black rims. So we put that on the

screen, sheriff. And if anybody, you know, has a jog memory by seeing a modern family, two moms and potentially six kids, maybe three kids driving

in a vehicle like this with black rims. So this is the Yukon. Silvery gray but with black rims.

And let`s just talk again, sheriff, about those places. The ravel route again that you know of. A Newport, Oregon. That was Saturday, March 24th.

It continued along U.S. 101 down the coastline, making I think either a stop or they drove through Legit (ph), California reaching Ft. Bragg. And

Ft. Bragg, California by the way, was reached by Saturday, March 24th, 8:00 p.m.

So if you are watching and you think you might have been in those areas at that time, think through what you saw. That vehicle, those moms, those

kids, buying bananas in Ft. Bragg. They were there not just at 8:00 p.m. on March 24th. They stayed for nearly 24 hours until March 25th 9:00 p.m.

Any idea what they were doing there?

ALLMAN: Certainly, tourism is one of the biggest legal activities in our county. And we welcome people to come to the county and see the beauty we

have. So I don`t think they would go unnoticed as sticking out. This is a beautiful time to come to Mendocino County and see the whales and see the

redwoods trees. So I think that if they were to stick out, it would be a longer route coming down highway one or highway 101. And they all got out

to scratch of whatever. But I was at the crash scene.

BANFIELD: It is weird. I want to go to the crash scene in a moment. But that Ft. Bragg`s spot, you know, they were there for 24 hours from night

until night, right. But they woke up on Sunday morning March 25th. And sometime at 8:00 in the morning, that`s when Jennifer is spotted in the

safe way.

So presumably, they wake up in Ft. Bragg. She goes to safe way to buy only bananas. It is a bit odd, but that is all she is buying at that checkout

counter that we can see right now. And Jennifer is the one who is behind the wheel. So it lead you to believe if she was planning this, if there

was a mission because they ended up driving back up north. I mean, they switched directions and drove what, 30 minutes, 30 miles? What was it to

the crash scene?

ALLMAN: it is about 30 miles north. It`s in an area where cell phones rarely work. It`s a very remote rugged part of our coastline. It is

actually the last part of our coast in Mendocino County before highway one turns into 101. So it`s a very confusing crime scene because why did the

car stop 70 feet from the edge? Why did it accelerate? Why did it plunge over without any braking? Was it an accident? Was someone asleep? Was

there a struggle? We don`t know yet. But our pathologist is certainly trying to give us as much as information as possible. And we have six

agents who is out there today. We have divers. We have the helicopters. We have ground searchers. We have dogs that are trying to detect any human

remains along the beach if human has been there. So we are pulling all stuff because we could have kids who are somewhere alive. And we know that

and we are working hard to find those kids.

[19:10:11] BANFIELD: God bless you because there is a huge storm coming as we understand tomorrow. And that makes it extremely difficult. As if the

surf weren`t roiling enough below. The storm is going to complicate things even more in terms of the sea patterns.

To that struggle that you just eluded to, whether there was a struggle, that`s a big question because, sheriff, you have mentioned, this could be,

you know, this could be seven homicides, one suicide. And I don`t know about those other three children who are missing right now. But it could

be seven homicides.

To that end, do you know if there is evidence right now of a struggle from the passenger seat where Sarah Hart was seated to the driver`s seat where

Jennifer Hart was driving over the cliff?

ALLMAN: We don`t know. You know, one of the few things we do know about the crash is that both adults were seat belted in and the children weren`t.

So it adds to the confusion of what was happening in that car when it happened. Fortunately the highway patrol, as I said, they are great

investigators. And they have some of their best investigators, an May-team (ph). They are investigating this and they are working hand in hand with

our department and with Portland and Washington authorities.

BANFIELD: And again, that weather is getting bad tomorrow. So you know, we are going to continue to tap into the clues that you have, sheriff.

Don`t go anywhere.

I so want to invite Lynn Smith into this conversation because there is a whole other part of the story. And that is what was happening before those

pinpoints were tracked on that map. And it goes back years.

Lynn, there was a history of domestic abuse with this family. A lot of it centering on Jennifer who now is confirmed, the sheriff has told us as the

driver. Can you walk me through it?

LYNN SMITH ANCHOR, HLN`S WEEKEND EXPRESS: Yes, Ashleigh. Quite disturbing. And you know, when you know, when you hear possibly a mother

could have intentionally driven her children on a cliff, you want to know were there red flag? And it appears there were at least two incidents, one

dating back to 2008. And this is when they lived in Alexandria, Minnesota. And it involved the moment their daughter, Hannah, apparently some bruises

were detected on her arm. It was investigate by police.

Now according to a police report, Hannah told authorities her mom hit her with the belt. And later she said it was Jennifer who did it. And they

brought the moms in for questioning. Both Jennifer and Sarah said we have no idea how she got these bruises, but she fell down the stairs just a few

days earlier. And then they went into how Hanna is adopted. They have other adopted children. The children have issues, the said, food. And

they even accused them of stealing other people`s food and so they have trouble disciplining them.

BANFIELD: And it wasn`t the last time - Lynn, it wasn`t the last time, again in 2010, 2011 again in Alexandria, another incident including a 6-

year-old. This was one, Abigail saying mom hit me. And then I guess Sarah saying I spanked her over the bathtub. But this is a report where Abigail

told the police that she was hit repeatedly with a close fist, submerged under cold water, her head, meals were withheld and ultimately she had said

it was Jennifer, but Sarah took the wrap.

SMITH: Yes. And actually, Sarah pled guilty to domestic assault. And here is what is really interesting as you described what happened in that

incident. She was then on probation. And in 2011, right after her probation agreement expired, she took her children out of school. Because

what you just described, she complaints at school, Abigail, that she had bruises on her stomach and that`s when teachers reported it to authorities.

So the very next day they took the children, all six of them, out of that school. And we confirmed with the school district that they began

homeschooling them.

BANFIELD: That`s disturbing.

Real quickly, Christine Washington is a friend of the family. And then she said in hindsight looking back at the relationship, she thinks definitely

something was up. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE WASHINGTON, FRIEND OF THE HART FAMILY: I told Jen, I wanted to be a part of their life, you know, forever, because I was adopted. I want

to let those kids know that I had been through the same traumatic situations that they were in. And I am still smiling and I am still OK.

I`m speaking up for the children. That they didn`t have a voice. They didn`t have anybody else to go to.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: This mystery is not over. We are going continue to follow it.

My thanks to Lynn Smith and to sheriff Tom Allman. Randy Zelin is going to stay with us as well.

His grandfather was murder, his mom disappeared at sea and Nathan Carmen`s family is now doing a lot of finger-pointing about who is responsible. And

some of those fingers are aimed right at Nathan who by the way could stand a huge chuck of a multimillions dollar inheritance left behind.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:12] BANFIELD: When Nathan Carmen heard that he had been hit with a slayer action, he probably knew right away that this is no video game.

That is because the 24-year-old is accused of killing his own grandfather before his mother went mysteriously missing at sea. And it is his own

family doing the accusing.

And that legal action that they filed is called a slayer action. It sounds mean, but make no mistake, it`s strategic. More on that in a moment.

First, why Nathan is even in this pickle in the first place. Police say that Nathan was the last person seen with his grandpa. A wealthy real

estate developer said to be worth over $40 million. That grandpa was found shot to death in his bed. And Nathan also happened to be the last person

seen with his mother who happened to be to disappear on a fishing trip that she took with Nathan nearly three years later. A woman who might have been

inherited a very big chunk of those millions. But Nathan survived the sinking fishing boat. He was found alone floating on a life wrap after

spending a week at sea.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN CARMEN, 24-YEAR-OLD: I feel healthy. I feel healthy. Emotionally I have been through a huge amount. I would just like to thank the public

for their prayers and for their concern for both my mother and percent for myself.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But now that Nathan stands to gain those millions, his aunts are asking a judge to keep him away from his grandfather`s money, hence the

request for the slayer action. It would mean the court would call him a murder. He is reportedly refusing a polygraph test and he might seem

unusual in court. He shows up solo. He is representing himself even though he is only 24. He also might have Asperger`s syndrome. When

weather he has killed off his own family or survived some serious trauma, this is the question they are asking in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMEN: I was lost at sea and my mom died. It would be great to have people embracing you saying we are glad you are home, we are glad you are

alive and also helping me to deal with my mom`s death. It hasn`t been that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: With me now, James Walsh, a reporter for "New York" magazine. He is the author of "Playing Against the House, a traumatic world of an

undercover union organizer." Defense attorney Randy Zelin is still with me. And on the phone, Daniel Small. He is the attorney for those aunts of

Nathan Carmen. Also with me is Pat Hayes. She is the mother of two sons with Asperger`s and the author of the book, "My Tears in his Bottle."

James, let me begin with you, if I can. The issue of Asperger`s, we say may have Asperger`s, he was diagnose diagnosed.

JAMES WALSH, REPORTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Yes. His father confirmed that he was diagnosed with Asperger`s as a kid.

BANFIELD: Does this seem to be at the central part of the case as to whether his unusual demeanor, the spidey senses that maybe the police had

when they began to interview him, kicked in because of his demeanor?

WALSH: I wouldn`t say that. I mean, police did go through a number of child. They spoke with a doctor to make sure that they were conducting the

case about the evidence and not about Nathan`s demeanor. I think there is a lot more smoke around what Nathan did rather than there is around just

sort of the way he carries himself.

BANFIELD: And to be clear, the police -- it wasn`t as though they didn`t know what was something different about this young man, they hired an

expert. One of the agencies doing the investigation, hired an expert in Asperger`s so that they wouldn`t misinterpret any of the signs when they

talk to him.

WALSH: That`s right. That`s right. And they knew Nathan was fully functioning, you know. He has loved alone. He drives. It goes on the

boat. It`s really just the way, you know, growing up he had a hard time making friends like many kids on the spectrum.

BANFIELD: And a lot of kids in high school have a lot to say about him.

WALSH: Sure. A lot of the kids in high school -- some of them called him sweet, some of them say he is very polite, but others say that he would

sometimes lash out at teachers. There is going to be hubris about him. He always believes he is the smartest person in the room and often times he

is. But he has no problems yelling at teachers or another student described him throwing stuff to the side when he--.

BANFIELD: He had a tough time coping when he was challenged. His coping mechanisms failed when he was challenged in high school. Then there is

also a report as a child, he held another child hostage with a knife.

WALSH: Right. That did show up in a police report. I was not able to speak anybody to confirm that. But police reports did say he held a knife

to a child and then they went further to say that he had psychotic episodes as a teenager in high school.

[19:25:02] BANFIELD: So ABC News did this interview with him, a sit down interview. Reporter Lindsey Janus (ph) they asked a number of questions of

Nathan Carmen. It didn`t go well. He got very upset. He walked out. I mean, he came back eventually, but you can get a sense of his personality

from this interview. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Another thing that happened since we last got together, police searched his home.

CARMEN: Yes. We are done for this evening, period. We are done here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not trying to make you uncomfortable. We are trying to give you an opportunity to answer some of these allegations.

CARMEN: We are done here this evening.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So that gives you a bit of a taste of at least, you know, how things go when you challenge him. It didn`t go - like I said, he came back

to do the interview. Talked a little bit about the other stuff you said. The evidence. It is not so much about the demeanor. It is more about the

stuff, the evidence. And let`s be clear, he hasn`t been charged with either of these situations. One is a definite homicide and the other one,

we don`t know where mom is. She was never found. But there were -- the grandfather was killed with three-way bullets and he bought a gun.

WALSH: Right. Investigators discovered about six months after the murder that Nathan had purchased a rifle, 308, matching the caliber --.

BANFIELD: Can`t find it.

WALSH: They asked Nathan about it. They say, they alleged that they asked Nathan about it. And he said he said he lost it.

BANFIELD: And the aunts said he lost it, too, right.

WALSH: Right.

BANFIELD: That`s one big smoking gun, literally. He had dinner with his grandfather allegedly the night he died. And then did not show up for a

scheduled meeting with his mom the next morning. Is that correct?

WALSH: He did show up on time. They did go fishing the next morning. They were fishing, (inaudible) investigators were at the scene of the

murder.

BANFIELD: Not the ominous fishing trip back in three years later where he was doing repairs on the boat. I think he took the trim tabs off and then

sealed it with marine putty and off they went fishing and lo and behold, the boat sunk. Somehow, he gets a life raft with food and water and a week

later he is found. But mom, somehow, he has no idea where she disappeared to as that boat was sinking. Then there is the hard drive and the

computer. What was that story?

WALSH: Investigators searched his apartment after the murder and they couldn`t find a hard drive and a GPS that he had at the time of the murder.

It was kind of another key piece of evidence that has gone missing along with, you know, the gun, along with the boat.

BANFIELD: And inconsistencies, too. Stories that aren`t -- do we know what the inconsistencies are that the police are referencing when they say

that?

WALSH: Sure. I mean, he doesn`t really answer these questions. Whenever he is pressed about these things, he started acts the way we saw that

interview.

BANFIELD: And again, that could be that the condition that he suffers that is not easy to communicate and maybe that`s part of it.

Hold that thought for a moment. Daniel Small, I want to you jump into this conversation, if I can. You are representing the aunts in this case. Have

they always had a problem with Nathan? Or have these issues surfaced since grandfather and mom who is presumably dead, grandfather is definitely dead?

Do the issues circle has been?

DANIEL SMALL, ATTORNEY FOR AUNTS OF NATHAN CARMEN (on the phone): Well, Nathan always had problems with violence and temper, but obviously the

family didn`t realize that he was a killer until after his grandfather was murdered. Nathan was the last person to see his grandfather. He refuse to

tell the police about the gun that could be the murder weapon. He had failed -- refused to take a lie detector test. And now, he is claiming the

Fifth Amendment, refusing to answer basic questions about that gun that he bought, claiming that truthful answers would incriminate him.

BANFIELD: Well, to be really clear, your clients have a dog in the fight is $42 to $44 million by my estimate that is up for grabs that, you know,

John (inaudible) had earn. And when he died, it became the inheritance of his children. Your client, and obviously, Nathan`s mom who is no longer

there, so Nathan. So, is this about the millions and I don`t know if it was to be divided up evenly, say $11 million per person. Is it about the

millions? Do they not - do they want him to have his millions or do they not want him to have his millions? What is it?

SMALL: No, Ashleigh. It`s absolutely not about money. The family wants justice. They don`t want money. They have said from day one that if as a

result of this litigation there is money is freed up, that money is pledged to charity in the name of Linda Carmen. This is blood moan. Nathan Carmen

is desperate to get it and the family simply doesn`t want it to go in that direction. The family wants no part of blood money.

BANFIELD: OK. I want to play a little bit more of Nathan in his own voice. This is Nathan presumably on a rescue ship after that week at sea

on the radio to the U.S. coast guard. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMEN: There was a funny noise in the engine compartment. I looked and saw a lot of water. It was bringing one of the safety vest forward, the

boat struck out from under my feet. When I saw the life raft I did not see my mom. Have you found her?

[19:30:05] UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we haven`t been able to find her yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Pat Hayes, I want to you jump in with me here. A lot of people have made a lot of hay about his demeanor, his flat affect, his dead gaze,

and, of course, this voice, after being a week at sea and losing your mom, just being so methodical. With two children of your own with Asperger`s

can you help me sort through that?

PAT HAYS, MOTHER OF TWO SONS WITH ASPERGER`S: Sure. I mean (INAUDIBLE) whole day. It was, basically -- it almost sounded like he`s reading a

script he`s memorized or something. Because a lot of times, people with Asperger`s, they sort through things in their mind and they talk about them

in a way that shows no emotion. It shows for him to not be sad that his grandfather is dead or that his mother is missing. It kind of misses the

whole point about Asperger`s.

BANFIELD: Yes.

HAYS: Because we that are neurotypical, we experience things in different ways than a person with Asperger`s does.

BANFIELD: Randy Zelin, jump in here if you could. You`re hearing Pat describing this. You know, deceit and avoidance, that`s kind of the way of

communication with Asperger`s as opposed to we assume that means criminal.

RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I sit here and I`m dumbfounded, and I don`t even know where to begin this. There`s not enough time. Starting with who

is allowing this young man, with Asperger`s or not, to represent himself --

BANFIELD: Yes.

ZELIN: -- when he is a suspect in a murder case. How someone has not stopped the parallel civil proceeding what he is burying himself.

BANFIELD: Agreed. Agreed.

ZELIN: When there is a criminal case that he could be hit with. He is being taken advantage of. You have lawyers on T.V. saying he`s already a

killer. Who decided that?

BANFIELD: Yes. You know, I`m with you. I agree. This shouldn`t happen. Look, I`ve seen people represent themselves who never ever should have done

so, and it is a tricky wicket for a judge to walk, but at the same time it`s the Windsor Connecticut Police who still say he is still a suspect in

the death of dad or granddad. So, I agree. I think it`s shocking that a man like that -- he says it`s because he has no money, he`s hoping to sell

a house or do something with his house to get money and get an attorney, but I think you make a great point.

Let`s stay on this story. And I hope you`ll come back again. It`s good reporting. And Randy, I`m going to get you to weigh in on a couple of

others as well. My thanks to James and to -- also to Daniel Small for joining us and to Pat Hays as well.

Tonight, a verdict after a beautiful San Diego woman was found naked and bound, gagged, and hanging from the balcony of her boyfriend`s mansion.

After 6-1/2 years of investigators insisting that Rebecca Zahau somehow did that all to herself, a jury has decided otherwise. They said that her

boyfriend`s brother, Adam Shacknai, is actually responsible, and they`re holding him liable for her death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did Adam Shacknai touch Rebecca Zahau before Rebecca Zahau`s death with the intend to harm her? The answer is yes. Was Rebecca

Zahau harmed before her death by Adam Zahau`s conduct? The answer is yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Her family has now been awarded $5 million in damages. Shacknai was the only other person on the grounds that day. Case took a stunning

twist the other day during a demonstration of how Rebecca was found hanging and it was very literal in court.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a very close to where she was hanging. He doesn`t come over here and shack her, (INAUDIBLE) see, are you alive. What

does he do? (INAUDIBLE) attack, he called 911.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: So disturbing to see that image of what really would look like Rebecca in that -- in that way. That`s exactly how she was found by the

way, naked, hanging like that. Adam Shacknai`s brother, Jonah, who was dating Rebecca, had testified at the trial that it was inconceivable his

brother played any role in her death. Jury did not buy it. I want to be clear here though. That`s civil case and neither of the Shacknai brothers

is a suspect at this point or has been charged with any kind of murder. That was simply civil but it did not go their way.

A young mother gunned down and left to die on the side of a road. Now, an arrest in that murder but what is the connection between this 20-year-old

mother of four little kids and her accused killer?

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: First impressions are everything. And one man in San Antonio may have passed the test the first time, but he is not going to get a

second chance, at least with the De La Cruz family. Because after he reportedly picked up 20-year-old Brianna, and even met her grandma, police

say he shot her to death, and then, dumped her bullet-ridden body on the side of the road. A mother to four little boys. Four boys, all under the

age of 5. Tonight, four little boys, all without a mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA RODRIGUEZ, BRIANNA DE LA CRUZ`S SISTER-IN-LAW: She didn`t deserve this. She was 20 years old. She was a baby. She always looked out for

the ones she loved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:40:07] BANFIELD: With me now, is Brianna`s father, David De La Cruz, Defense Attorney Randy Zelin. First, I want to go to Investigative

Reporter and syndicated radio host Kate Delaney. Kate, we are learning a lot more from the arrest affidavit of exactly what this suspect was up to -

- Kedreen Pugh. Tell me what they found out.

KATE DELANEY, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Yes, interesting about his background. Number one, he`s a documented member of the Bloods, criminal

street gang, and he is considered to be an ongoing threat, Ashleigh, to anyone who would cooperate in the investigation that no less even though,

of course, he`s been arrested, and supposedly, what a witness is saying is that Kedreen shot Brianna because she had stolen money from him. And he

also said that he would have gone back to pop her a couple more times. So, it`s pretty incredible in terms of detail.

BANFIELD: Kate, that is so disturbing to think a mother of four, by the way, a 20-year-old mother of four, a headline in itself, was still alive

apparently when the first witness spotted her on the side of the road. What happened? How is it that they couldn`t rescue her?

DELANEY: Yes, what happened was that somebody went by in the tractor- trailer could not turn around called in, and then, by the time they got there, EMS arrived and tried to help her, they found that she was already

deceased. But the -- but again, the driver believed that she was crawling, which would explain why she was half in the street and half out and that

she was alive.

BANFIELD: Oh, God. There are so many pieces of evidence that the police have been able to gather from witnesses and from the scene, and let`s start

with the person who came to pick her up. The next of kin saying it was a black male with an unknown Hispanic female, which I`ve heard no more

reporting on that person. But they were in a red four-door Nissan. What kind of car does Kedreen own?

DELANEY: He owns a Nissan, doesn`t he, and they found that out when it was on the database where they looked him up.

BANFIELD: OK, so then next of kin said that Brianna recently stayed at a Studio 6 motel on Highway 90 and where did Kedreen rent a room?

DELANEY: Highway 90 at that motel.

BANFIELD: OK. So, now, we say witnesses had a TEC-9 pistol, and is that what we`re finding out was the weapon in this case?

DELANEY: Yes, the witnesses say that he was possessing a TEC- 9, 9- millimeter pistol walking around with it.

BANFIELD: OK. Now, also, witnesses say that Kedreen was open about this. He actually came back and bragged about it. What did he say to these

people?

DELANEY: Yes, he said what I mentioned before, that she had stolen money and that if he could go back, he`d do that. He would -- he would pop her a

few more times. He said that he shot her but he didn`t do it because the sun was about to come up.

BANFIELD: This is so distressing. I mean, there`s just so much evidence against this man. Let me bring in David De La Cruz. David, first and

foremost, I am so sorry for your loss. Your daughter --

DAVID DE LA CRUZ, FATHER OF VICTIM: Thank you.

BANFIELD: -- just -- she`s just stunning. She`s just beautiful. And now, she has four little children under the age of five who don`t have a mom.

First and foremost, where are they and how are they?

DE LA CRUZ: The boys -- there`s three boys with me. It`s Elijah, Jeremiah, and Isaiah. And the youngest child is four months, he`s with his

father, Paul Salinas. Now, they`re doing --

BANFIELD: Do they know -- do they know about what happened to their mom, David?

DE LA CRUZ: They don`t know. They were used to seeing her every day. They just -- I just can`t -- don`t have the heart to tell them yet. When

they get older, I will tell them, but I don`t think I would let them see her like that.

BANFIELD: Are they asking about mom?

DE LA CRUZ: Yes.

BANFIELD: What are they saying?

DE LA CRUZ: They constantly asking for mama in every day. Before they sleep, they are asking for their mother, and I just tell them that she is -

- she is resting right now and we`ll see her soon.

BANFIELD: David, did you ever get a look at this Kedreen Pugh, the man they`ve arrested for your daughter`s murder? Did you get a look at him?

DE LA CRUZ: No, not in person. I didn`t. I never met him.

BANFIELD: But as I understand it, someone in your family did, correct?

DE LA CRUZ: Correct. Correct. I was at -- I worked at the time, but my mother was at home with the kids and she -- Brianna came by and brought him

by, wanted my mother to meet him.

BANFIELD: This was the new boyfriend, right? Like she`d only known him a couple of weeks, correct?

DE LA CRUZ: Right, and she told my mother that he was obsessed with her and love -- you know, buying her gifts and in love with her.

[19:44:56] BANFIELD: And so, that was it. The night -- the day that grandma had met this man was the last day she would see her granddaughter

alive. David, thank you for being with us. Again, I am so sorry for your loss. Your daughter was just simply lovely and beautiful, and those

children are beautiful. And I wish you and your family the best as you navigate the road ahead of you. It will not be an easy one.

DE LA CRUZ: Thank you very much.

BANFIELD: Randy Zelin, I want you to weigh in just quickly. That is a lot of evidence. And again, with the background he`s got in the Bloods, and

all that evidence against him, do you see a good defense here?

ZELIN: Well, first of all, you have to -- and I know it`s difficult, but from a criminal defense standpoint, remove his background, because, right

now, his background is not necessarily relevant. How is the conversation going if he is not an alleged member of a gang? What do you have? You

have a relationship, you don`t have any other signs of violence, you have no witnesses coming forward about some motive. What we have was people who

could be co-operators, they could have their own motivation for saying what they`re saying. We don`t know whether these people are reliable. This guy

who`s a member of a gang, he`s telling everybody who will listen, by the way, I`m the guy that did it. It doesn`t really fit the profile, we don`t

have ballistics, we don`t have --

BANFIELD: Let`s wait on that. Let`s wait on those ballistics. I think that`s going to be a big part of this. There`s another big part of this

story, and David De La Cruz who was talking about his daughter hasn`t yet told the second part of the story. And the second part of the story

started when she was just a young kid and it is equally sad. We`re going to talk about that right after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:51:18] BANFIELD: We`re still talking about that young Texas mother found shot to death riddled with bullets on the roadside. A man arrested

and charged with her murder, but he is not the first man to be arrested for hurting Brianna De La Cruz. Because Brianna just 20 years old when she

died with four little boys of her own under the age of five. Brianna was actually abducted, herself, when she was 12. Her dad, David De La Cruz is

still with me. David, what was the story? What happened to Brianna when she was 12?

DE LA CRUZ: Well, she had spent the night at a friend`s house, a friend that she went with school, and her mom and I were real close friends. I

allowed Brianna to spend the night, and she would walk at the park with this friend. The park was nearby by this family friend`s house, and they

met -- they -- this guy by the name of George, picked them up. He tried taking other -- my daughter`s friend as well, but my daughter got away and

he ended up taking my daughter, took her all the way to Indiana. I was not aware where she was at for two years.

BANFIELD: And George is now in prison as I understand for this. And George --

DE LA CRUZ: He`s in federal prison.

BANFIELD: He`s in federal prison. For how long?

DE LA CRUZ: He`s in there for, what is it, five years? I`m sorry, 17 years. I`m sorry.

BANFIELD: Wow. That`s -- that`s a serious sentence. He abducted her at the age of 12. How long did he keep her?

DE LA CRUZ: Well, like I said, it was about two years.

BANFIELD: And he, at the time, was a family friend or just a friend of hers?

DE LA CRUZ: No. It was not a friend of the family. It was a friend -- no, it wasn`t a friend of hers, either. He just took her. You know, it`s

-- we didn`t know him. He didn`t know her from prior -- previous engagements or anything. He just --he took her from there.

BANFIELD: And so you have lived through this tragedy of trying to track her down for years.

DE LA CRUZ: Right.

BANFIELD: And then, finding her, rescuing her, going through a sentence, a trial and a sentence of George.

DE LA CRUZ: Right.

BANFIELD: Only now to be in this situation you`re currently in. Again, my heart goes out to you, David. I thank you so much for sharing Brianna`s

story with us and best of luck to you as the trial ahead is likely to be very difficult.

DE LA CRUZ: Thanks. Thank you.

BANFIELD: David De La Cruz joining us, father of Brianna De La Cruz.

DE LA CRUZ: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And good luck to those four children as well.

You might think that prison inmates have been stripped of pretty much all of their rights, right? But the right to a big scoop of beans, literally,

beans at the lunch counter? One inmate in Michigan is taking it pretty seriously. And wait until you hear the case he`s bringing before a judge.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: And "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. You would not think that getting an eensy-weensy serving of beans has anything to do with a lawsuit,

but if you were the one counting on a big serving in the lunch line in the prison, you might just launch that lawsuit. Meet James Maben. He is

actually suing a corrections officer in Michigan for $260,000 after he was short-changed on the beans on his tray. When he complained about the

serving, Maben says the officer gave him a misconduct ticket saying he cursed and yelled at him. Maben says, hey, even a prisoner has a first

amendment right and he says they were violated in the chow hall line. Guy who served him the beans said, yes, my bad, I did it. And a federal judge,

appeals judge, has agreed, ruling that this case can actually proceed. So, you just wonder about the signers of the constitution doing that old roll

in the -- you know. You know how it goes but there`s one in every state.

Thank you for watching, everybody. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. See you back here tomorrow night 6:00 for CRIME & JUSTICE. Stay tuned. "FORENSIC

FILES" is up next. Good night.

END