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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Hunt For Killer, Teacher Gunned Down Outside Family Home; Horrific Video, Bus Driver Violently Abuses Girl; Mom Stabs Girl, Sets Home On Fire And Flees; Shayna Hubers Found New Love Inside The Prison; A Bus Driver Caught Abusing An 8-Year-Old Autistic; Cops: Mom Binds & Gags Daughters, Stabs One; Homeless Man Decks Two Old Ladies On Mother`s Day. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired May 15, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[18:00:00] PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone. I`m Pat Lalama from Crime Watch Daily. In for Ashleigh

Banfield. This is "Crime and Justice."

Tonight a stunning young schoolteacher has been shot dead and it happened on her mom`s driveway. Bernice Man is covering this story. Bernice, who

do it?

BERNICE MAN, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Pat, there are more questions than answers in this case on who did it and why. As police remain tight-

lipped, will a cell phone hold some clues for us?

LALAMA: Also happening tonight, get this, California bus driver facing criminal charges after she was caught on camera abusing an autistic child.

At least that is what the courts are saying. But Justin Freiman, video so hard to watch.

JUSTIN FREIMAN, SR. PRODUCER, HLN CNN: That video is hard to watch. That camera was inside that bus as that woman actually was berating that child,

seeming to bully that child, and then according to police, physically abusing the child.

LALAMA: I can`t wait to hear the accused.

And an urgent search comes to an end after a missing 8-year-old girl is found with her mom. Only that mom is accused of binding and gagging her

other children and stabbing her oldest daughter. Kyle Peltz is covering that story.

KYLE PELTZ, CRIME AND JUSTICE PRODUCER: Pat, talk about a house of horrors. That oldest daughter is still fighting for her life tonight as

her mom was seen smiling after her arrest. But the big question, why was mom on the run in the first place?

LALAMA: I can`t wait to hear that one.

Plus, the hero caught on camera, taking down a man who attacked two women reportedly saying, come on, man, it`s mother`s day. We`ll show you how

that turned out.

And later, the murder suspect speaking out for the very first time behind bars. But it seems she is speaking out on her terms and not about the ex

she shot in the face.

But first to Western Pennsylvania, where a driveway turned into a death scene, that is where Rachel DelTondo was found bleeding Sunday night after

reportedly going out for ice cream with a friend. And that is where Rachel DelTondo was pronounced dead of multiple gunshot wounds to the chest.

Police have taken a cell phone and will try to figure out what happened. But why anyone would kill her is still a huge mystery. Tonight, a stunning

33-year-old teacher who neighbors call nice and beautiful.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DWAN WALKER, ALIQUIPPA MAYOR: Miss DelTondo was a bright light, she didn`t bother anybody. She didn`t hurt anyone. To lose a life like that, Rachel

DelTondo, they speak to the heart of Aliquippa, because we are so close.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: I want to bring in my panel Kirstin Kennedy, Cops and corpse reporter for the Beaver County Times, also CNN law enforcement analyst, and

former assistant Director of the U.S. Marshalls, Art Roderick and defense attorney, Anahita Sedaghatfar.

OK. Kirstin, so, I`m hearing that up to 12 shots were heard. So my first question is, did anybody see it? What`s the motive? What do we know?

KIRSTIN KENNEDY, REPORTER, THE BEAVER COUNTY TIMES: You know, police have made it really clear they`re not going to tell us whether they have a

suspect. And until they have a suspect, they`re not going to release any sort of type of motive. The multiple gunshot wounds, that is coming from

the autopsy and that is coming from the Coroner, who said that, you know, she sustained several gun shots. Neighbors reported hearing 10 to 12

shots. And police have said that they`re interviewing witnesses, but they haven`t said who.

LALAMA: Well, you know, there`s a bit of a back story that I think I should explain before we go to you and our other guests. So, there`s

arteries coming out of this big vein which is the horrible murder. She was on paid suspension from her school for allegedly being found in a steamy

windowed car with a minor. The D.A., Kirstin, you say, is apparently now saying, oh, that is all wrong, that is rubbish, shouldn`t have happened.

Now there`s a state investigation in Pennsylvania of the local P.D., because of a leak on the report. Now, where does all this go? Where does

it take us? And is it connected in any way?

KENNEDY: You know, I can`t really say that it`s connected. I know I received an anonymous e-mail in November that contained that police report.

I don`t know who sent it to me. We did double-check with the Cyber School, where she was employed and they had said that she was on suspension. And,

you know, really to that, they`re not saying much.

LALAMA: But what about, I mean, will there be charges on this other matter?

KENNEDY: You know, police are really vague of whether it`s even related. So I couldn`t even begin to speculate.

LALAMA: Wow, I know. I mean, we want answers, and it`s just so strange. So I want to go to Art Roderick, CNN law enforcement analyst, former

assistant Director U.S. Marshalls. So there`s one other odd element to all of this.

[18:05:06] And that -- this happens to be a woman who was going to get married. The engagement was called off allegedly, because of this incident

with the minor. And she fought and fought and fought. Apparently there was a TV segment, to get her money back for the dress. So just kind of on

a cursory level, because we don`t know anything really, something just sounds strange to all of this.

ART RODERICK, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALSYT: Yes, the back stories are the strange part of this whole particular case. And as a criminal

investigators, as all criminal investigators, we don`t believe in any coincidences whatsoever. So all this -- all these back stories will be

looked at to see, if there`s any connection to the crime.

Now, the interesting thing I find it is six to 12 rounds being fired, somewhere in that vicinity, indicates to me, that it`s sort of a semi-

automatic handgun or rifle. If it`s a handgun, that that means to me that they unloaded the whole clip, the whole magazine, every round in the

magazine into Rachel, which is sort of an overkill shooting here, which could indicate that there`s a personal issue going on here, and that the

perpetrator knew Rachel when the crime was committed. So I`m sure law enforcement is looking at all this. And also the indication that they`re

tight-lipped just means to me that they have some very good leads that they`re tracking down right now.

LALAMA: Well, wouldn`t it also be potentially a murder for hire that someone shows up with an automatic weapon?

RODERICK: It could be, yes.

LALAMA: Anahita Sedaghatfar, defense attorney, well, we don`t have anybody for you to defend yet, but just looking at it, in your experience, look at

all these different odd elements, I think somebody`s covering their, you know what, somewhere.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It seems to me, I agree with you. This is not a coincidence. This was in a residential neighborhood. It was

a quiet neighborhood. And there were so many people that had a motive to harm this woman. Could it be the jilted ex-husband? Could it be the

individual that released that confidential police report about her and allegedly this young man? Could it be the wedding dressmaker that she had

a conflict with? We just don`t know.

But it`s good that the police are saying at least they have her cell phone, Pat. So they are going to look at her texts messages, they are going to go

through her e-mails, her online activity and hopefully get some clues from that electronic data.

LALAMA: And back to Kirstin. Kirstin, do we know that it`s her cell phone and not of the presumed assailant?

KENNEDY: You know, they would not say who the cell phone was -- who possessed it, but they did say that it was going to the state capital in

Harrisburg for further analysis than what they`re able to do locally.

LALAMA: Can you expound -- and I don`t want to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but I`m looking at so suddenly the State of Pennsylvania is

investigating Aliquippa P.D., where my family settled after coming from Italy by the way, Kirstin. And so, I`m just wondering, somebody`s in

trouble for something. But we just don`t know what avenue to go down at this point. And for the right reasons, they`re probably staying hush-hush

at this point, but any clues at all?

KENNEDY: Well, my understanding with that initial investigation, through the Pennsylvania State Police was, that they were looking into some issues

with the city and that they really weren`t able to release a lot of details. And I think it may be a jump to connect these two cases at this

point.

LALAMA: Right.

KENNEDY: Just because I really don`t know.

LALAMA: Absolutely. I understand. So let`s go back to Art Roderick, CNN law enforcement analyst. So that cell phone is going to be really, really

important, because it would probably reveal moments leading up to her death.

RODERICK: Yes. Not only the cell phone, but they`re also looking at security cameras from the surrounding neighborhoods to see who was driving

in and out of that neighborhood at that particular point in time. They`re also looking at traffic cameras, any toll cameras in the neighborhood. So

it`s important that they gather all this video from the surrounding neighborhood to find out who was in that neighborhood at that particular

time. And there`s other technical things they can do from a cell phone perspective. Looking into the forensic portion of that cell phone to

figure out exactly what she was doing for that whole day and who she came in contact with, you know, hours prior to this horrific crime occurring.

LALAMA: Kirstin Kennedy, what time of day did this happen again?

KENNEDY: About 10:45 p.m. on Mother`s Day, Sunday night.

LALAMA: OK, so it`s dark out. Can you describe the neighborhood for me? Is it dark? Is it remote? Give me an idea.

KENNEDY: It`s a very -- as it`s been described, a very quiet, calm neighborhood. It is off a main road and just down the road is sort of a

small business district, but it`s pretty suburban and it is pretty quiet. When I was there yesterday, I didn`t take any particular notice of street

lights. You know, I don`t know, you know, if the homes had lights on at the time. I would imagine they did.

LALAMA: Wow. Did she live with her mom, Kirstin?

KENNEDY: That is my understanding.

LALAMA: All right, does she have any children? Do we know anything about her family? I know her family is called traditional Italian.

[18:10:07] KENNEDY: Sure.

LALAMA: Anything else we know about siblings, anyone else that might be a known enemy?

KENNEDY: You know, those are some of the questions that I and other news outlets were asking today. As far as I know, she has no children. I don`t

know really much more details about the family.

LALAMA: Anahita, this seems to me to be an act of vengeance. You know, this is, I mean, 12 shots in the driveway, premeditated, right?

SEDAGHATFAR: Yes.

LALAMA: I mean, we are all guessing at this point.

SEDAGHATFAR: It`s all guessing. But it does seem passionate, it does seem personal, kind of like overkill. One thing about the police kind a not

saying much, Pat. I don`t think that is shocking. They may know much more than they`re letting us know in the media --

LALAMA: Yes.

SEDAGHATFAR: -- because this is a murder investigation. And they certainly don`t want to do anything that would compromise it. So I would

suspect that they have interviewed witnesses. There might be someone that is a person of interest or possibly a suspect. We in the media just don`t

know about it yet, because they don`t want to let that out.

LALAMA: Well, it`s always that fine balance, you know, between our right to know and their right to adjudicate and follow an investigation properly.

And we get frustrated, because we want so much more and they have to do their diligence to make sure we don`t screw up the case. Excuse my lingo,

so let me go back to Art Roderick on that. My guess, I agree with Anahita. I think they know more than they`re saying. What you and your experience?

RODERICK: Absolutely. If there was a public safety issue, they would have come out with some description of an individual and more information about

the crime itself. So, I mean, having dealt with this in my career, usually when we`re quiet on the law enforcement side. That means we`re

investigating something pretty good in the background, and we won`t put out information until we hit a dead end or we run out of leads.

LALAMA: So give us law enforcement 101, Art, you know, you`re the guy, you are the detective, a man to call on to the scene. Where do you begin?

RODERICK: Well, the crime scene is the key part. I mean, we did had some reports that law enforcement was looking into the bushes. I`m assuming

they`re going after shell casings that are extracted from the weapon that usually comes out to the right side of a pistol or a semi- automatic rifle.

So I`m sure they`re trying to track down every round.

The ballistics are going to be important. Both shell casings that they find at the scene and also any of the bullets they can take out of her body

to match that up with a particular handgun. And some of these serial shootings that we`ve had in the past, in Tampa and Phoenix, the ballistics

is a key part of determining how the crime was committed, but also who committed the crimes.

So, the crime scene is going to be the most important thing right away, and then you can follow that on with the cell phone and video cameras and her

social media footprint also.

LALAMA: Absolutely. Well, I was just going to ask Kirstin, have you seen investigators carrying boxes out of her mother`s house? You know, do we

know -- you said you`re not sure that she lives with her mom, but you think so. What do we know about that?

KENNEDY: Well, I know that the district attorney today did say that it appears that most of the casings, if not all are the same caliber. But he

did say that he can`t confirm that they came from the same gun. That is going to come from the state police crime lab and could take months to

really confirm.

LALAMA: So Anahita, it`s so hard, because we have nothing to work with here, but you would think that there maybe was a warning or maybe she had

some sort of words with someone. I mean, I`m just pulling straws out of whatever right now, because we don`t have any information. But as a

seasoned defense attorney, throw out some -- throw out conjecture and let`s make sure we understand we`re just guessing at this point.

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, we are guessing, but again, like I said before, there are people that had a possible motive to harm this woman. And so the

police are certainly going to look at her family, the people she had disputes with, I think there might be something to the fact that she was

having an alleged affair with an underage boy. Could this possibly have something to do with that? This police report about that incident was

private. It was confidential, because she was never charged in that case. So how did it get released? So, I think that might be something the police

really are looking at, at this point.

LALAMA: Well, Kirstin, very quickly, how was it released?

KENNEDY: It was sent by e-mail to some of the school officials and then other members of the media. When I responded to the address, everything I

sent came back as undeliverable.

LALAMA: Thank you, Kirstin. We will be right back to you in a minute.

Outrage tonight over this horrifying video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SCREAMING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you ready?

(SCREAMING)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Up you go. Up you go.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: So upsetting. A school bus driver caught on camera getting physical with an autistic second grader, wrestling with her in the aisle

and refusing to let her get off the bus. The driver`s facing charges and the girl`s family is demanding answers.

[18:15:02] How could this situation spin so wildly out of control? That is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:20:00] LALAMA: A veteran elementary school in California has lost a bus driver, that is, veteran bus driver and not just any bus driver, a

special needs bus driver named Kim Klopson. Because Kim was caught on camera handling one of her students in a way police say no child should be

treated. Though she certainly seemed nice and trustworthy, while she was waving goodbye to the parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM KLOPSON, BUS DRIVER, VACAVILLE SCHOOL: Good morning. Bye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye.

KLOPSON: Have a good day. Let me know when you have your seat belt buckled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: But Kim`s cherry demeanor took a U-turn when an 8-year-old stuck her leg in the aisle and sparked such a reaction from Miss Klopson. She is

now being charged with child abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KLOPSON: OK, this is the deal. Do not kick the seat. And if you stick your feet out like that again to keep her from moving, you are going to be

on the window. You`re misbehaving. As always. Sounds like to me. No. Mine. Because you did not do what you were supposed to. Now sit down and

you can have it back. No. (BEEP), she is acting like she is younger than her baby sister. Only two.

Oh, no, a baby. You might think you can get away with this, but not on my bus. Now are you ready? Let`s go. Let`s go. Yes. You want to act like

a baby? Time to go. Are you ready? Up you go. Up you go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please stop it!

KLOPSON: I`m not going to stop it unless you stand up. OK, are you done? Let`s go.

LALAMA: Miss Klopson decides to close the doors for this next part, shutting out the teacher`s aide who would later take the girl to the nurse.

It`s what the lawyer for the girl`s family is calling false imprisonment, saying she was trapped so the abuse could continue.

KLOPSON: No, no, no.

(SCREAMING)

Are you done? Nope.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t like you!

KLOPSON: I don`t like you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please stop it!

KLOPSON: No, I`m not going to stop it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop it, please! Please!

KLOPSON: Hey, are you done? Do you want me to stop! Do you want me to stop? I`m sure you don`t like me. It`s all right. We`ll be better this

afternoon, won`t we (BEEP)?

It`s OK. I didn`t hurt her, guys. I know you`re all like -- it`s OK. Bye. I`ll see you after school.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Oh, she didn`t hurt her. Well, you`ll soon find out. With me now, Melissa Murphy, the managing editor of The Reporter Newspaper, also

Micha Star Liberty, attorney for that 8 year old victim`s family. And my friend defense attorney, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Oklahoma Police -- excuse,

forget that.

All right, so, I`m really shaken up by this as you can tell. So let`s start with Melissa. Where is this woman now?

MELISSA MURPHY, MANAGING EDITOR, THE REPORTER: She is out on bail. She posted bail on March 13th. It was $55,000.

LALAMA: And what is her -- so she is been charged. So give us the charges.

MURPHY: Yes. She is been charged with felony child abuse. And she had been booked into Solano County Jail, but has since posted bail.

LALAMA: All right. So in case anybody at home is thinking, well, it doesn`t look like there was any physical harm done, let`s forget the

emotional harm that may have been perpetrated. What exactly are the injuries?

MURPHY: I`m under the impression that she sustained abrasions to her lower back, her rib cage area and from the incident and she also hit her head.

LALAMA: OK. Micha Star Liberty, I can imagine, now look, let`s be fair. Videos don`t always tell the whole story, but I think we can jump to some

pretty raw conclusions here. How would she justify this? And what are this child`s parents going through at this point? And how is the child by

the way?

[18:25:00] MICHA STAR LIBERTY, ATTORNEY FOR 8 YEAR OLD`S FAMILY: There`s no way to justify this kind of behavior. It`s completely abusive,

disproportionate to any sort of action this young 8-year-old special needs child took. She is -- the young woman is traumatized. She is now started

therapy. And it`s very difficult for autistic children to process trauma. Their coping skills are different, their processing skills are different.

So this is going to take years, frankly to undo. She is having nightmares and regressive behavior, all the typical symptoms that we would see in a

PTSD case.

LALAMA: I have to tell you, I see it all, 41 years of covering crime, but I just -- I`m fighting back tears. Anahita, you know, as a defense

attorney, you have to look at behavior and mitigating factors and what might be the excuse. But this woman, 18 years on the job, can`t possibly

think that fighting with an autistic 8-year-old that she is going to win this battle. What is she trying to get at here?

SEDAGHATFAR: That looks really bad for her. The defense is going to be difficult. Because that video is so damning. And not just in terms of her

criminal prosecution, but also for civil liability. Because remember the family has every right to sue this teacher and the school, civilly, for

monetary damages. I mean, it`s absolutely clear, this woman has no right to be around autistic children, she has no idea what she is doing, how to

deal with this child. And then to the extent that the family can show the school didn`t provide proper training, proper oversight, which seems clear

by this video as well, they too are going to be liable and they better get ready to pay a big fat check to this family, because if this goes to trial

and a jury watches this video regardless of how the defense tries to spin it, or say that it is out of context, that is going to be so damning. And

any juror that watches that is going to definitely hold that against this woman. So it`s really a no-win situation civilly and criminally for this

bus driver and the school.

LALAMA: Melissa Murphy, what`s interesting, my understanding, correct me if I`m wrong, is that, she is been on the job 18 years and has never had a

complaint. So what is this? One grumpy day? How do they explain this?

MURPHY: I don`t know how she would explain it. I understand that this might not have been her regular route. That she had been filling in for

someone else on this particular day. And that she might have not been in her element. This might have been a unique situation. But I`m not sure.

Like I said, it was -- she was a substitute this day.

LALAMA: But, Micha Star Liberty, attorney for the family, that would give you more fodder to extreme liability, because if the school at the last

minute said, oh you go deal with these special needs kids and she is not trained for it, she could in turn sue the school.

STAR LIBERTY: Well, here`s what you need to understand. We have reason to believe this is not the first time this happened.

LALAMA: I wonder.

STAR LIBERTY: First of all, the local police department posted a story when this bus driver was arrested, and a woman posted a response, saying

something along the lines of, I had a similar issue with this particular bus driver years ago. Nothing was ever done, and I`m glad something is

happening now. So we believe there are others. Also just to add, in the video, this driver specifically says, she announces to the educator who is

standing at the bottom of the steps watching this child be abused, she announces to her, we`ve had to do this before.

LALAMA: Oh my gosh.

STAR LIBERTY: So this is behavior that is familiar to her.

LALAMA: Well, Anahita, what do you think about that? And here`s my big question that I haven`t heard anybody really get into. What about that

aide? I mean, maybe it`s just my Italian temper, but I would have jumped on that woman and pulled that kid away. I`m not look, I am not judging, I

wasn`t there, I don`t know all the parameters, but I just don`t know why she walked away. Yes, she did come back and get the child and bring her to

the nurse and that is how everything blew up, but should she have acted? Was she afraid? Afraid she would get sued by the school. Everybody`s so

darned afraid now of taking action.

SEDAGHATFAR: But that is no excuse. If she is a teacher, she had a duty to intervene. OK, so this teacher is standing there, watching the abuse,

she does nothing, she doesn`t intervene, she doesn`t ask someone else to intervene, she doesn`t call the police, I mean, that is totally

unacceptable. They should have investigate her and see if she is violated any laws there.

LALAMA: Melissa Murphy, why aren`t we hearing more about that aide, and does she have a name -- he or she?

MURPHY: I called the district and they responded that it was a personnel matter. Well, of course, that is unacceptable. That is absolutely

unacceptable, Pat. In a civil context as well, I would think that they would have, the family would have a claim against that teacher as well,

because you have a special duty to children when you`re a teacher. You`re in a position of trust. She should have done something there.

LALAMA: Well, one thing we can say for the school district, as if they did act quickly the driver`s gone, thank haven for that, but let us hear from

Lieutenant Mark Donaldson with the Vacaville P.D. about his interpretation of the matter.

[18:30:00

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK DONALDSON, LIEUTENANT, VACAVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: I would describe her as talking very mean to the student. She is very forceful with the

child. I would describe the video as being very disturbing, difficult to watch. The child was terrified. Again, it was so difficult to watch. Was

crying, was begging for the bus driver to stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Micha Star Liberty, defense attorney, what do you want from this? And I`m sure it doesn`t have to do with money. I`m sure that may be

involved, but I`m saying you want justice.

LIBERTY: Absolutely. I want policies to change. The district came out immediately. It claimed that it fired this bus driver. But in criminal

court, she has announced that she quit.

So which is it? Did the district do the right thing and fire her? Or did this woman quit because she didn`t like the treatment that she got by the

district?

Regardless of all of that, we want to make sure that there are qualifications that bus drivers have to meet before they have any

interaction with special needs students. I know the district has said it trained properly.

It may have trained and we`ll get into that when we get into the discovery in the civil case that we intend to file, but was that training effective?

I don`t think so. Just take a look at this video.

LALAMA: Absolutely. And I think also it would behoove you and I`m sure you will, I`m not telling you how to do your job, to find other prior acts,

similar prior acts to bolster your case that there was a history with this woman if in fact there was. I don`t know, but you know, the contention is

here that perhaps there were other matters.

LIBERTY: We believe there are.

LALAMA: Absolutely. And Melissa Murphy, what can you tell us about that? Do you know much about -- we`ve talked about other people who have said

surreptitiously that this isn`t the first time, but is there an investigation going on by the police department?

MELISSA MURPHY, MANAGING EDITOR, THE REPORTER (via telephone): Sure. I just spoke with Mark Donaldson again today and he confirmed that during the

process of their investigation, that they tried to reach out to -- that that was on their radar, that there might be possible additional victims.

But so far, no one has stepped forward.

LALAMA: Thanks to my guests on this. What an ugly, ugly story.

Up next, Oklahoma police are searching for answers after a Tulsa mom allegedly attacks her own kids, brutally stabbing her oldest daughter

before fleeing with her youngest, and setting her house on fire. What caused her to snap?

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: Tonight, multiple heroes miles apart are responsible for the end of a terrifying search for an 8-year-old girl and her mom. Because police

fear that little girl was in danger after what mom reportedly did to her sisters. Taheerah Ahmad is now in police custody, accused of tying up her

two other daughters and taking a knife to her oldest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MACKENZIE, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, TULSA POLICE DEPARTMENT: The 9-year-old sibling of the 11-year-old stated that earlier in the evening

that the mother had duct taped their hands, put socks in their mouths, and then began stabbing the 11-year-old.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: And it`s thanks to that 9-year-old daughter that police even knew what was happening, because she reportedly managed to escape the house,

that their mom might have later set on fire, and walk over an hour to a relative`s while she was still bound in that duct tape.

Her story sparked a manhunt for her mom who another mom spotted a few miles away. She called in the tip that led to Taheerah`s arrest. And the 8-year-

old being brought back to safety after 18-plus hours on the run.

But the same can`t be said of that 11-year-old sister because she`s still in critical condition at the hospital. And police say she was stabbed more

times than they can possibly count.

Joining me now, Russell Mills, anchor and reporter for KRMG Radio, also Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, public information officer from the Tulsa Police

Department, and defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar.

So, thanks for joining us Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, public information officer, Tulsa PD. The first thing I want to know is the state of those

three children. Where are they and what condition are they in?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): The 9-year-old and the 8-year-old are both in DHS custody, and the 11-year-old is in critical condition at the hospital.

LALAMA: Officer, we`ve read recently just in the last couple of hours that the mother is claiming self-defense against her daughter.

[18:40:02] Any truth to that or any more that you can tell us about that?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Yeah, when she was interviewed by detectives, she stated that she became upset with her two older children because they

were reading a book and looking at her. And so she got the duct tape to tape the two older children up. And that the oldest child began to fight

with her. And that`s when she got a knife and stabbed her, she said approximately 50 to 70 times.

LALAMA: Oh, good heavens. But officer, her children were reading a book and this angered her? And looking at her? Give me some context there.

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Well, you know, that`s all we have from the suspect interview, when we asked her, you know, what caused this, what

triggered this? What made you stab your daughter? And she said that they were reading and they were looking at her. They didn`t normally read, so

she knew they were up to something.

LALAMA: Let me ask you since we have you and we are privileged to have you, what have you been able to recover from the scene that may be helpful

in your investigation?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): They were able to recover the two knives and a pick (ph) axe that the mother stated that she hit the 11-year-old over the

head several times with.

LALAMA: Oh, my gosh. So, I`m assuming the children are in someone else`s custody, relatives, friends?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Yes. the two younger ones are in custody. But like I said, the 11-year-old is in extremely critical condition, still in

the hospital.

LALAMA: And unconscious, is that true?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Yes.

LALAMA: Gosh, it`s heartbreaking. I want to go now to Russell Mills, anchor/reporter at KRMG Radio. What do you know about this family? Is there

a partner, a father, a grandparent? Have police been called to this house before?

RUSSELL MILLS, ANCHOR/REPORTER, KRMG RADIO (via telephone): My understanding is that the father is not in the picture. We don`t know

exactly what that means or whether he`s even aware of all of this going on. We understand that she moved to Tulsa recently, I believe, from Tennessee,

is what she`s been telling police.

And that is about as much as we know about the background except it`s interesting that they found her within a couple miles of where all this

occurred. And what she`s saying is that they were basically in that parking lot the whole time. There`s some video surveillance to back that up.

And she says it`s because she didn`t really have anywhere to go or anywhere to turn to. So we don`t think she has a lot of family or a lot of friends.

But clearly, there was one relative living fairly close, because that`s where the middle girl, the 9-year-old, went to get help when all of this

happened.

LALAMA: So Officer MacKenzie, what can you tell us? Have you been called to that home in the past? Do you know anything about the mother`s mental

state or any potential -- or possible criminal record?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): She does not have a criminal history with the Tulsa Police Department. We do not have any information currently on her

mental status. And, you know, we know that there has been some department and human services, some child protective services history there, but the

details of that, I don`t know.

LALAMA: So she`s alone, she`s got three young girls. Is she employed, officer?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): She was until recently.

LALAMA: Was she terminated?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): I believe so.

LALAMA: Which might have something to do with some of this. Anahita, let`s get your assessment of this behavior. You`re a defense attorney. You`re

going to be looking for the best case scenario for your client. What are you going to do in this case?

SEDAGHATFAR: I predict an insanity plea. She`s going to claim that she was legally insane, that at the time of the killing she heard voices talking to

her, the devil was telling her to do this, and that she was not in her right mind. She had a mental breakdown. She didn`t know the difference

between right from wrong.

That`s a very hard burden to prove, but I think she might have that argument here because based on what she already told the police, it just

doesn`t make sense. It sounds like she was hallucinating or really having a mental break in that moment. So, I predict that`s where she`s going to go.

LALAMA: We got more to talk about. I`ll ask my guests to please don`t move and we`ll be right back.

[18:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: We`re still talking about the Oklahoma woman accused of duct taping her two oldest daughters, stabbing one of them more times than

police could count, and allegedly leaving her for dead in a home she set on fire before going on the run with her youngest.

Tonight that mom is thankfully behind bars after a tip came in to police from someone who not only spotted her but that 8-year-old daughter as well

and apparently they weren`t trying to hide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKENZIE: A citizen who saw the vehicle that matched the description, saw a child and a woman in the vehicle, called saying, you know, I think this

might be our amber alert. When officers got there, the victim was sitting on the roof of the car and waving at people as they drive by.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Russell Mills, reporter and anchor for KRMG Radio on the phone with us.

[18:50:04] So, what happens next? Where is she? And what happens next?

MILLS (via telephone): Well, she`s in police custody and has been booked into the Tulsa County jail. Obviously she`s going to be arraigned. She`s

facing several felony counts and that would include arson, child neglect, assault and battery with a deadly weapon. So, she`s got some major legal

problems ahead of her, and she`ll be arraigned on those here in the near future.

And then as your defense attorney in Los Angeles stated, there`s a pretty decent chance that she may claim some sort of mental incapacity or insanity

defense. We don`t know. But right now, she`s in jail.

LALAMA: Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, can you describe for us, we had heard that the house was not in good shape, the home. What can you tell us?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): You know, beyond the fact that the house was a crime scene where a child was stabbed, you know, 50 to 60 times, there was

blood splatter everywhere. There was furniture that had been moved. The cushions off the couch. The kitchen obviously had fire damage. It wasn`t a

clean residence.

LALAMA: So I`m going to jump out on an editorial limb here to Anahita Sedaghatfar. Fifty to 60 stab wounds, setting the house on fire, the place

a squalor, that doesn`t sound like self-defense to me.

SEDAGHATFAR: It does not sound like self-defense at all. And let me tell you, she better be thanking god that that poor little girl is still alive,

because god forbid if she dies, she can now face murder charges. As it stands now, she is only facing assault and battery and child abuse. But if

that little girl doesn`t make it, she`s going to face murder charges.

And the fact that the house is a mess and there was feces on the floor and all these kinds of things, I think it might go to help her mental insanity

defense because that would go to her mental state. Was there something profoundly wrong with this woman?

Did she have a mental break? Look at the conditions they were living in. And to the extent that there was a prior CPS history here, I think that`s

not going to look good for the state, because how did they allow these three kids to still live with this woman who had clear mental issues?

LALAMA: Well, you know, here`s my question, if you want to try insanity, but you`re also clever enough to sit with the police and say, I had to

defend myself. That takes some knowledge of right from wrong.

SEDAGHATFAR: It does. And the fact that she fled the scene. That shows consciousness of guilt, which would go against an insanity defense. She has

some problems here, but we don`t know all the facts. I just suspect that she will go with the not guilty by legal insanity plea.

It`s a very, very high bar. We know that it works in less than one percent of cases in which it`s used. So we`ll have to wait and see how that works

out for her at the arraignment.

LALAMA: And also Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, she took off from the scene, so I am not asking you to make some sort of prosecutorial judgment, but she

knew she needed to get away from the place where this reportedly happened.

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Yes, she did. And she even stated that she set the house on fire to ensure that the 11-year-old is dead.

LALAMA: Wait, wait, wait. She said that?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Yes. She said that in her interview.

LALAMA: I`m stunned. You`re telling me that in her interview, she said she set the house on fire to make certain that the 11-year-old she stabbed

multiple times was, in fact, dead?

MACKENZIE (via telephone): Yes.

LALAMA: Anahita, hurry up, tell me, give me an answer.

SEDAGHATFAR: That doesn`t sound good. That shows that maybe she did not have a mental break, if she knew what she was doing even after the stabbing

of this little girl. So, I don`t know. She probably should not have had a conversation with the police.

This is why we tell criminal defendants, when you`re being charged with something, don`t speak without an attorney because even if she did have a

viable defense, she may have just ruined that for herself by giving that statement. That is a damning statement to make.

LALAMA: Right. And I`m certain Tulsa PD did its due diligence and read her her rights.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

LALAMA: Up next, a mother`s day gift no mom would ever want to get. Sucker-punched on a Brooklyn street. One more thing, straight ahead.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: One more thing for you tonight. Mother`s Day is supposed to be all about gifts, cards, and flowers. Not sucker punches. But that`s exactly

what happened to two elderly women leaving a Brooklyn market on Sunday. A homeless man walks right up to them and decks them.

That`s when a nearby good Samaritan who is also homeless leap into action, tackled the attacker, and held him until police came. The two ladies were

treated for their injuries and released while witnesses congratulated the homeless hero.

[19:00:03] The next hour of "Crime and Justice" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Incarcerated, with an announcement. A murder suspect sits down in front of the cameras for the first time.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I think I would handle things differently now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But she won`t talk about her ex, the one she shot in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t want to talk about my case with you. I`m not here to talk about any of that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Does she have something else up her sleeve right before she gets her new retrial?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`ll make that a surprise. We`ll put that into surprise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was so difficult to watch.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s no excuse for it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was a special needs bus driver, but not anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t like you!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t like you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please stop it! I don`t want to!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because she was caught on camera, taunting an 8-year- old child.

Before throwing her to the ground and dragging her. But is she getting punished accordingly when she says she is not guilty?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s OK, I didn`t hurt her, guys.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tonight the search is over for a missing 8-year-old girl as is the manhunt for her mom. She is accused of tying up her other

kids.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Duct taped their hands, put socks in their mouths.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And stabbing her oldest daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then began stabbing the 11-year-old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So what was she planning to do with her youngest?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: Good evening, everyone. I`m Pat Lalama from Crime Watch Daily in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Tonight, we get to hear from a killer, and whether she killed to defend herself or to possibly keep her boyfriend from dating another woman. That

still has to be determined. But Shayna Hubers has a lot to answer for, because she shot her ex six times, and she shot him right in the face.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, I have a -- I killed my boyfriend in self- defense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, hold on. Hold on. What did you kill him with?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A gun. A loaded gun in the house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, are you sure that he is dead?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He is dead, ma`am. He is completely dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. And how long ago did you shoot him?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t know. Fifteen, ten, minutes, not even that long.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ten or 15 minutes ago?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. I mean, I`m not a murder, ma`am, I just killed --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened exactly? What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ma`am, and then because he was twitching and I knew he was going to die anyway and he was making funny noises. I shot him a

couple of times just to kill him because he would been --.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m sorry. You said you shot him a couple more times after that?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So you shot him instead of calling 911?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What? Yes, I did. Because he was going to die anyway.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: Shayna Hubers was actually convicted of murder. But as luck would have it, that conviction was overturned. And now she is getting a retrial.

That`s probably what local reporters thought she wanted to talk about when she agreed to do an interview. And we may not have seen someone so eager

to sit down in front of the cameras since Jodi Arias. But Shayna made it clear she wasn`t there to talk about Ryan.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there ever a point that you have thought since 2012, and you say, if I can turn back the clock, I would just walk out of the

condominium and I would leave?

SHAYNA HUBERS, CONVICTED OF KILLING HIS BOYFRIEND: I don`t want to talk about my case with you. I`m not here to talk about the nature of my case

or what happened on October 12th.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever had any moments of remorse or apology just to Ryan`s family? Not going into specifics.

HUBERS: I`m not here to talk about any of that. I`m here to talk about other issue at hand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there anything you regret in 2012?

HUBERS: I`m not here to talk about 2012. I`m here to talk about today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People see this and they`re watching this, what do you want them to know about your self-defense claim from 2012?

HUBERS: I`m here to talk about 2012. And I told you that before I came in here.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: Shayna was there to talk about her new lover, An inmate named Richard McBee, also known as Unique Taylor. And she had a lot to say about

unique because the two of them want to get married.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[19:05:03] HUBERS: I love Richie, Unique, Richard. Devon mcbee. I -- junior. And to me, it is no -- it`s nothing but real. It`s nothing but

genuine love. I believe with all my heart that Unique is my soul mate. I just want to emphasize how much I love Richard. And how real that is to

me. This is no kind of joke. We genuinely love each other.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Well, I want to bring in my panel, Melissa Neily, anchor and reporter for 700 WLW. Also jury consultant and body language expert Susan

Constantine. And of course, defense attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar.

Well, gee. Where do we begin? Let`s start with Melissa Neily.

OK, there`s a lot of stuff going on here. I`m going to make it very clear and then we can start debating. So Melissa, the first thing we need to

tell people, yes, she did get convicted, but apparently one of the jurors didn`t tell the courts that he was a convicted felon, is that correct,

right?

MELISSA NEILY, ANCHOR AND REPORTER FOR 700 WLW (on the phone): Yes, that`s correct.

LALAMA: OK.

NEILY: They have now scheduled a retrial.

LALAMA: Great. So now she is got a retrial. And isn`t it interesting that that retrial is supposed to be coming up in a few months? And now she

wants to talk to the media but only about her new lover. And I think you have some things to tell us about this. Go ahead.

NEILY: Yes, so that`s right. Well, Shayna Hubers has come out to say that she is interested in marrying Unique Taylor, who is a transgender woman who

is being housed in the male side of the jail, or in a male jail. She is in the women`s side.

So she says quote "this is not a publicity stunt, this is not BS, we genuinely love each other."

And allegedly she came out to the media because she said she filed the papers and yet got nowhere. Yet she notified the media almost as soon as

they had filed the papers for the marriage, so there wasn`t even really time for them to be processed before she came out to the media.

LALAMA: How is it that she is permitted -- OK, well, I guess I just answered my own question. Because you say Mr. McBee is transgender, so

living in the female facility?

NEILY: No, he`s actually in the male facility. But they met during a period where they were in a rec area, recreation area. And they were able

to meet each other a couple years ago. And I guess have been communicating through letters and maybe a few phone calls.

LALAMA: Susan Constantine, I really want to talk to you. You`re a jury consultant, body language expert. Is she borrowing from the Jodi Arias

playbook?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: You know, when I first heard about this case and I watched her perform it, the first person that came to

my mind was Jodi Arias. It was an absolute performance. But not a good one.

LALAMA: Why do you say not a good one? Like I don`t know.

CONSTANTINE: OK, well, when you`re watching her facial expressions, you know. They`re just off. Her smile is not real. It`s more contrived.

It`s more about trying to please the interviewer. Her mouth tends to be horizontal. Her eyes don`t light up. So it`s a very false expression,

which is what we call duping delight. People do this when they try to convince someone, when they are being deceptive.

LALAMA: Very interesting.

And also just to be certain, there`s nothing funny or happy about this scenario, but just her presence and she seems to be playing with the media.

She threw out the bait and of course the media takes it. But why shouldn`t they, you know? I can understand.

But Anahita, let`s get back to something really interesting about that 911 call we heard up front because we need to talk about the murder itself or

the alleged murder now. She says on the phone, I killed him in self- defense, that`s a little bit me thinks thou doth protest too much.

ANAHITA SEDAGHATFAR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: That`s` sounds a little contrived. Like how would you know to say that to the 911 operator?

And let me just tell you something about this because it is killing. As a defense attorney, this is terrible. Not only does she undermine her

attorneys who knew nothing about this tape -- this interview, I should say. But she is undermining her case because everything she said in this

interview will be used against her in the trial that`s coming up. The prosecution is going to hold it all against her. You`re on trial for

murder and you`re laughing and giggling and giving a media interview about falling in love and wanting to get married. Where`s the remorse? That is

the worst thing she could have done for her case. Very Jodi Arias-esque. I agree with you and your guests.

[19:10:03] LALAMA: Yes. But Anahita, let me ask you. I mean, this -- I was going to say confession -- this particular interview is not necessarily

a slam dunk when it comes to admissible. The judge will have to weigh the probative, prejudicial, you know, value of it. Very quickly explain how

that will be determined.

SEDAGHATFAR: Well, the other side -- the defense is going to argue it`s more prejudicial than probative and therefore, should not be introduced.

That doesn`t lend itself to the murder theory that the prosecution is saying. The prosecution is going to say it is absolutely, you know, should

be admissible. It shows what her state of mind was. She has no remorse. This is a terrible woman. She killed her boyfriend, even if it was in

self-defense, she is not mourning. It`s only been a couple of years. She is laughing and giggling. She is enjoying this media attention. And so

the prosecution likely will get this admitted into her trial and the jury is not going to like it. I think it will backfire on her. She should not

have talked. I know her attorneys didn`t even know about this interview. Can you imagine having this to contend with?

LALAMA: Yes. I`m sure they`re not happy at all.

Let`s hear more from Shayna now. Let me set this up. So in her first case, she did not take the stand. So the reporter in this latest interview

asks her basically, you know, gee, do you think you`ll take the stand on round number two? Let`s hear it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUBERS: I`ll leave that up to -- I`ll make that a surprise. We`ll put that into vise.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Surprise?

HUBERS: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Oh, man. You know, do you smell publicity stunt? I`m just saying. I don`t know.

Now, the other thing that`s like Jodi Arias, she is asked about all the mail she receives. Check this out.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you get a lot of mail from perfect strangers, just supporting you and --

HUBERS: Sure.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a daily thing? Weekly? Do you write back to them?

HUBERS: Often times I do, yes. Yes. I get a fair amount of mail, depending on media coverage and what`s out there. And if something recent

has happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: And back to Melissa Neily, WLW. And before I ask you the question, maybe we can put up some of the crime scenes. Because we don`t

want to forget that a young man died heinously. And they are graphic. So be prepared.

But Melissa, so when is the trial scheduled to begin? Have you spoken to her defense attorneys? How will the second trial be different? Do you

have any of that information?

NEILY: Well, the second -- the retrial is set for August. However, you know, this keeps getting continued for whatever reasons. They keep trying

to push it off. But it`s scheduled for August. And as she said in the interview, as far as she knows, now the trial will be going on in August.

But, you know, that little piece that she said there about her being on the stand or not being on the stand and being a surprise, she was not on the

stand in her original trial. So I would expect that that won`t be happening again for a retrial. So there was a perfect example of her

basically coming out with some media grabber or media line to get, I think, a little more attention towards her trial.

LALAMA: Right. So Susan Constantine, very briefly, don`t have a lot of time here. The thing that strikes me, she is not sad, she is not

remorseful, she is not thinking about the fact she could spend the rest of her life in prison. That`s not on her radar. It`s all about her, her,

her, her, right now.

CONSTANTINE: Right. So if she is not feeling it, how can she express it? Everything inside is going to be expressed on the outside. If you don`t

feel remorse, you are not going to show remorse. That`s just the way it is, the way the body works.

LALAMA: Yes. Anahita, very quickly. Boy, you would probably be pretty angry at this right now if you were her attorney.

SEDAGHATFAR: Absolutely. Her attorneys are going to have to contend with this at a trial, that their client murdered, you know, her boyfriend and

now she is talking about marriage and she is giggling and she is laughing and she is enjoying this media attention, talking about, oh, it will be a

surprise if I testify.

I mean, this is not a joke. Her life is literally on the line here. And this is not going to bode well in front of a jury of 12 individuals. And

her only hope really is to get sympathy. And that now, I think, is lost by the fact that she decided to give this horrendous interview. At least she

could have shown some sadness, some remorse, she could have said she apologizes for what happened. She didn`t even do that. She is just

bragging about falling in love in prison and wanting to get married.

LALAMA: Well, and to close this out, you know who`s really probably just outraged, his family.

SEDAGHATFAR: The family, that`s right.

LALAMA: The victim`s family, to listen to this, my heart goes out to them.

All right. Outrage tonight over this horrifying video.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you ready? Up you go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:15:03] LALAMA: A school bus driver caught on camera getting physical with an autistic second grader, wrestling with her in the aisle and

refusing to let her get off the bus.

The driver is facing charges and the girl`s family is demanding answers. How could this situation spin so wildly out of control? That`s next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Time to go. Are you ready?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:14] LALAMA: A veteran elementary school in California has lost a bus driver -- that is, veteran bus driver. And not just any bus driver, a

special needs bus driver named Kim Klopson. Because Kim was caught on camera handling one of her students in a way police say no child should be

treated. Though she certainly seemed nice and trustworthy, while she was waving goodbye to the parents.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Good morning. Bye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bye.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have a good day. Let me know when you have your seat belt buckled.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: But her cherry demeanor took a U-turn when an 8-year-old stuck her leg in the aisle and sparked such a reaction from Miss Klopson. She is now

being charged with child abuse.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, this is the deal. Do not kick the seat. And if you stick your feet out like that again to keep her from moving, you are

going to be on the window. You are misbehaving as always. Sounds like to me. No. Mine. Mine. Because you did not do what you were supposed to.

Now sit down and you can have it back. No. She is acting like she is younger than her baby sister. Only two. Oh, no, a baby. You think you

can get away with this, but not on my bus. Now are you ready? Let`s go. Let`s go. Yes. You want to act like a baby? Time to go. Are you ready?

Up you go. Up you go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please stop it!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not going to stop it unless you stand up. OK, are you done? Let`s go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: Miss Klopson decides to close the doors for this next part, shutting out the teacher`s aide who would later take the girl to the nurse.

It`s what the lawyer for the girl`s family is calling false imprisonment, saying she was trapped so the abuse could continue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, no, no.

Are you done? No.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t like you!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don`t like you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please stop it! I don`t want to! Stop it claim.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: -- stop it!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I`m not going to stop.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Stop it, please! Please!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, are you done? Do you want me to stop! Do you want me to stop? I`m sure you don`t like me. It`s all right. We will be

better this afternoon, won`t we?

It`s OK. I didn`t hurt her, guys. I know you are all like -- it`s OK. Bye. I`ll see you after school.

That should be interesting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LALAMA: Oh, she didn`t hurt her. Well you will soon find out.

With me now, Melissa Murphy, managing editor of the reporter newspaper. Also, Micha Star Liberty, attorney for that 8-year-old victim`s family.

And my friend, Anahita Sedaghatfar, Oklahoma police -- excuse, forget that.

All right. So I`m really shaken up by this as you can tell.

So let`s start with Melissa. Where is this woman now?

MELISSA MURPHY, MANAGING EDITOR, THE REPORTER (on the phone): She is out on bail. She posted bail on March 13th. It was $55,000.

LALAMA: And what is her -- so she is been charged. So give us the charges.

MURPHY: Yes. She is been charged with felony child abuse. And she had been booked into county jail but has since posted bail.

LALAMA: All right. So in case anybody at home is thinking, well, it doesn`t look like there was any physical harm done, let`s forget the

emotional harm that may have been perpetrated. What exactly are the injuries?

MURPHY: I`m under the impression that she sustained abrasions to her lower back, rib cage area from the incident and she also hit her head.

LALAMA: OK. Micha Star Liberty, I can imagine -- no, look. Let`s be fair. Videos don`t always tell the whole story, but I think we can jump to

some pretty raw conclusions here. How would she justify this? What are this child`s parents going through at this point? And how is the child by

the way?

[19:25:09] MICHA STAR LIBERTY, ATTORNEY FOR 8-YEAR-OLD`S FAMILY: There`s no way to justify this kind of behavior. It`s completely abusive,

disproportionate to any sort of action this young 8-year-old special needs child took. She is -- the young woman is traumatized. She is now started

therapy. And it`s very difficult for autistic children to process trauma. Their coping skills are different, their processing skills are different.

So this is going to take years, frankly to undo. She is having nightmares and regressive behavior, all the typical symptoms that we would see in a

PTSD case.

LALAMA: I have to tell you, I mean, I see it all, 41 years of covering crime, but I just -- I`m fighting back tears.

Anahita, you know, as a defense attorney, you have to look at behavior and mitigating factors and what might be the excuse. But this woman, 18 years

on the job, can`t possibly think that fighting with an autistic 8-year-old that she is going to win this battle. What is she trying to get at here?

SEDAGHATFAR: That looks really bad for her. The defense is going to be difficult because that video is so damning. And not just in terms of her

criminal prosecution but also for civil liability. Because remember the family has every right to sue this teacher and the school, civilly, for

monetary damages. I mean, it`s absolutely clear, this woman has no right to be around autistic children, she has no idea what she is doing, how to

deal with this child. And then to the extent that the family can show the school didn`t provide proper training, proper oversight, which seems clear

by this video as well, they too are going to be liable.

And they better get ready to pay a big fat check to this family. Because if this goes to a trial and a jury watches this video, regardless of how

the defense tries to spin it or say that it`s out of context, that is going to be so damning. And any juror that watches that is going to definitely

hold that against this woman. So it`s really a no-win situation civilly and criminally for this bus driver and the school.

LALAMA: Melissa Murphy, what`s interesting, my understanding, correct me if I`m wrong, is that she is been on the job 18 years and has never had a

complaint. So what is this? One grumpy day? How do they explain this?

MURPHY: I don`t know how she would explain it. I understand that this might not have been her regular route, that she had been filling in for

someone else on this particular day. And that she might have not been in her element. This might have been a unique situation. But I`m not sure.

Like I said, it was -- she was a substitute this day.

LALAMA: But, Micha Star Liberty, attorney for the family, that would give you more fodder to scream liability because if the school at the last

minute said, oh you go deal with these special needs kids and she is not trained for it, she could in turn sue the school.

LIBERTY: Well, here`s what you need to understand. We have reason to believe this is not the first time this happened.

LALAMA: I wonder.

LIBERTY: First of all, the local police department posted a story when this bus driver was arrested, and a woman posted a response, saying

something along the lines of, I had a similar issue with this particular bus driver years ago. Nothing was ever done, and I`m glad something is

happening now. So we believe there are others.

Also just to add, in the video, this driver specifically says, she announces to the educator who is standing at the bottom of the steps

watching this child be abused, she announces to her, we`ve had to do this before. So this is behavior that`s familiar to her.

LALAMA: Well, Anahita, what do you think about that? And here`s my big question that I haven`t heard anybody really get into. What about that

aide? I mean, maybe it`s just my Italian temper but I would have jumped on that woman and pulled that kid away.

Look. I`m not judging, I wasn`t there, I don`t know all the parameters, but I just don`t know why she walked away. Yes, she did come back and get

the child and bring her to the nurse. And that`s how everything blew up. But should she have acted? Was she afraid? Afraid she would get sued by

the school? Everybody`s so darned afraid now of taking action.

SEDAGHATFAR: But that`s no excuse. If she is a teacher, she had a duty to intervene. So this teacher is standing there, watching the abuse, she does

nothing, doesn`t intervene, she doesn`t ask someone else to intervene, she doesn`t call the police, I mean, that`s totally unacceptable. They should

investigate her and see if she has violated any laws there.

LALAMA: Melissa Murphy, why aren`t we hearing more about that aide, and does she have a name? He or she?

MURPHY: I called the district and they responded that it was a personnel matter.

LALAMA: Yes, of course.

[19:30:00] SEDAGHATFAR: That`s unacceptable. That is absolutely unacceptable, Pat, and in a civil context as well, I would think that they

would have -- the family would have a claim against that teacher as well because you have a special duty to children when you`re a teacher. You`re

in a certain position of trust. She should have done something there.

LALAMA: Well, one thing we can say for the school district is that they did act quickly, the driver is gone. Thank heavens for that. But let`s

hear from Lieutenant Mark Donaldson with the Vacaville P.D. about his interpretation of the matter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. MARK DONALDSON, VACAVILLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: I would describe her as talking very mean to the student. She is very forceful with the child. I

would describe the video as being very disturbing. It was difficult to watch. The child was very terrified. Again, it was so difficult to watch.

Was crying, was begging for the bus driver to stop.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: Micha Star Liberty, defense attorney, what do you want from this? And I`m sure it doesn`t have to do with money. I mean, I`m sure that may

be involved, but I`m saying you want justice.

MICHA STAR LIBERTY, ATTORNEY FOR 8-YEAR-OLD`S FAMILY: Absolutely. I want policies to change. The district came out immediately. It claimed that it

fired this bus driver, but in criminal court, she has announced that she quit. So, which is it? Did the district do the right thing and fire her?

Or did this woman quit because she didn`t like the treatment that she got by the district? Regardless of all of that, we want to make sure that

there are qualifications that bus drivers have to meet before they have any interaction with special needs students. I know the district has said it

trained properly. It may have trained and we`ll get into that when we get into the discovery in the civil case that we intend to file, but was that

training effective? I don`t think so. Just take a look at this video.

LALAMA: Well, I -- absolutely. And I think also it would behoove you and I`m sure you will -- not telling you how to do your job -- to find other

prior acts, similar prior acts to bolster your case if there was a history with this woman. If, in fact, there was. I don`t know. But your -- you

know, the contention here is that perhaps there were other matters.

LIBERTY: We believe there are.

LALAMA: Absolutely. And Melissa Murphy, what can you tell us about that? Do you know much about -- you know, we`ve talked about other people who

have said surreptitiously that, you know, this isn`t the first time, but is there an investigation going on by the police department?

MELISSA MURPHY, MANAGING DIRECTOR, THE REPORTER: Sure. I just spoke with Mark Donaldson again today and he confirmed that during the process of

their investigation, that they tried to reach out to -- that that was on -- that was on their radar, that there might be possible, additional victims.

But so far, no one has stepped out. No one has stepped forward.

LALAMA: Thanks to my guests on this. What an ugly, ugly story.

Up next, Oklahoma police are searching for answers after a Tulsa mom allegedly attacks her own kids, brutally stabbing her oldest daughter

before fleeing with her youngest and setting her house on fire. What caused her to snap?

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: Tonight, multiple heroes, miles apart are responsible for the end of a terrifying search for an 8-year-old girl and her mom. Because police

fear that little girl was in danger after what mom reportedly did to her sisters. Taheerah Ahmad is now in police custody, accused of tying up her

two other daughters and taking a knife to her oldest.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MACKENZIE, PUBLIC INFORMATION OFFICER, TULSA POLICE DEPARTMENT: The 9-year-old sibling of the11-year-old stated that earlier in the evening

that the mother had duct taped their hands, put socks in their mouths, and then, began stabbing the 11-year-old.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LALAMA: And it`s thanks to that 9-year-old daughter that police even knew what was happening because she reportedly managed to escape the house that

their mom might have later set on fire and walk over an hour to a relative`s while she was still bound in that duct tape. Her story sparked

a manhunt for her mom who another mom spotted a few miles away. She called in the tip that led to Taheerah`s arrest. And the 8-year-old being brought

back to safety after 18-plus hours on the run. But the same can`t be said of that 11-year-old sister because she`s still in critical condition at the

hospital, and police say she was stabbed more times than they can possibly count.

Joining me now, Russell Mills, anchor and reporter for KRMG Radio, also, Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, Public Information Officer for the Tulsa Police

Department, and Defense Attorney Anahita Sedaghatfar. So, thanks for joining us Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, Public Information Officer Tulsa P.D.

The first thing I want to know is the state of those three children. Where are they and what condition are they in?

MACKENZIE: The 9-year-old and the 8-year-old are both in DHS custody, and the 11-year-old is in critical condition at the hospital.

[19:40:00] LALAMA: Officer, we`ve read recently, just in the last couple of hours, that the mother is claiming self-defense against her daughter.

Any truth to that, or any more that you can tell us about that?

MACKENZIE: Yes, when she was interviewed by detectives, she stated that she became upset with her two older children because of -- they were

reading a book and looking at her. And so, she got the duct tape to tape the two older children up, and that the oldest child began to fight with

her. And that`s when she got a knife and stabbed her. She said approximately 50 to 70 times.

LALAMA: Oh, good heavens. But officer, her children were reading a book and this angered her? And looking at her? Give me some context there.

MACKENZIE: Well, you know, that`s all we have from the suspect interview, when we asked her, you know, what caused this, what triggered this, what

made you stab your daughter? And she said that they were reading and that they were looking at her. That they didn`t normally read so she knew they

were up to something.

LALAMA: Well, let me ask you since we have you, and we`re privilege to have you, what have you been able to recover from the scene that may be

helpful in your investigation?

MACKENZIE: They were able to recover the two knives and a pickaxe that the mother stated that she hit the 11-year-old over the head several times

with.

LALAMA: Oh, my gosh. So, I`m assuming the children are in someone else`s custody, relatives, friends?

MACKENZIE: Yes, the two younger ones are in custody. But like I said, the 11-year-old is in extremely critical condition, and is still in the

hospital.

LALAMA: And unconscious, is that true?

MACKENZIE: Yes.

LALAMA: Oh, gosh. It`s heart-breaking. So, I want to go now to Russell Mills, anchor/reporter, KRMG Radio. What do you know about this family?

Is there a partner, or a father, or a grandparent? Has the police been called to this house before?

RUSSELL MILLS, ANCHOR/REPORTER, KRMG RADIO: My understanding is that the father is not in the picture. We don`t know exactly what that means or

whether he`s even aware of all of this going on. We understand that she moved to Tulsa recently, I believe, from Tennessee, is what she`s been

telling police. And that is about as much as we know about the background, except, it`s interesting that they found her within a couple miles of where

all this occurred. And what she`s saying is that they were basically in that parking lot the whole time. There`s some video surveillance to back

that up. And she says it`s because she didn`t really have anywhere to go or anyone to turn to. So, we don`t think she has a lot of family or a lot

of friends, but clearly, there was one relative living fairly close because that`s where the middle girl, the 9-year-old went to get help when all of

this happened.

LALAMA: So, Officer MacKenzie, what can you tell us? Have you been called to that home in the past? Do you know anything about the mother`s mental

state or any potential or possible criminal record?

MACKENZIE: She does not have a criminal history with the Tulsa Police Department. We do not have any information currently on her mental status.

And, you know, we know that there has been some department and human services, some child protective services history there, but the details of

that, I don`t know.

LALAMA: So, she`s alone, she`s got three young girls. Is she employed, officer?

MACKENZIE: She was until recently.

(CROSSTALK)

LALAMA: Did -- was she terminated?

MACKENZIE: I believe so.

LALAMA: Which might have something to do with some of this. Anahita, let`s get your assessment of this behavior. You`re a defense attorney,

you`re going to be looking for the best case scenario for your client. What are you going to do in this case?

SEDAGHATFAR: I predict an insanity plea. She`s going to claim that she was legally insane. That at the time of the killing, she heard voices

talking to her, the devil was telling her to do this, and that she was not in her right mind, she had a mental breakdown, she didn`t know the

difference between right from wrong. And that is a very hard burden to prove but I think she might have that argument here because based on what

she already told the police, it just doesn`t make sense. It sounds like she was hallucinating or really having a mental break in that moment. So,

I predict that`s where she`s going to go.

LALAMA: Yes. Well, we`ve got more to talk about. I`ll ask my guests to please don`t move and we`ll be right back.

[19:45:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: We`re still talking about the Oklahoma woman accused of duct taping her two oldest daughters, stabbing one of them more times than

police could count, and allegedly, leaving her for dead in the home she set on fire before going on the run with her youngest. Tonight, that mom is

thankfully behind bars after a tip came in to police from someone who not only spotted her but that 8-year-old daughter as well, and apparently, they

weren`t trying to hide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKENZIE: A citizen who saw the vehicle that matched the description, saw a child and a woman in the vehicle, called saying, you know, I think this

might be our amber alert. When officers got there, the victim was sitting on the roof of the car and waiving at people as they drive by.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:50:08] LALAMA: Russell Mills, reporter and anchor, KRMG Radio on the phone with us. So, what happens next? Where is she, and what happens

next?

MILLS: Well, she`s in police custody and has been booked into the Tulsa County Jail. Obviously, she`s going to be arraigned. She`s facing several

felony counts, and that would include arson, child neglect, assault and battery with a deadly weapon. So, she`s got some major legal problems

ahead of her, and she`ll be arraigned on those here in the near future. And then, as your defense attorney in Los Angeles stated, there`s a pretty

decent chance that she may claim some sort of mental incapacity or insanity defense, we don`t know. But right now, she`s in jail.

LALAMA: Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, can you describe for us -- we had heard that the house was not in good shape, the home. What can you tell us?

MACKENZIE: You know, beyond the fact that the house was a crime scene where a child was stabbed, you know, 50 to 60 times, there was blood

splatter everywhere. There was furniture that had moved or the cushions off the couch. The kitchen, obviously, had fire damage or (INAUDIBLE) you

know, it wasn`t very (INAUDIBLE) clean residence.

LALAMA: So, I`m going to jump out on an editorial limb here to Anahita Sedaghatfar, 50 to 60 stab wounds, setting the house on fire, the place is

squalor, that doesn`t sound like self-defense to me.

SEDAGHATFAR: It does not sound like self-defense at all. And let me tell you, she better be thanking God that that poor little girl is still alive,

because God forbid if she dies, she can now face murder charges. As it stands now, she`s only facing assault and battery, and child abuse. But if

that little girl doesn`t make it, she`s going to face murder charges. And the fact the that the house is a mess and there were feces on the floor and

all these kinds of things, I think might go to help her mental insanity defense because that will go to her mental state. Was there something

profoundly wrong with this woman? Did she have a mental break? Look at the conditions they were living in. And to the extent that there was a

prior CPS history here, I think that`s not going to look good for the state because how did they allow these three kids to still live with this woman

who had clear mental issues?

LALAMA: Well, you know, here is my question, though. If you want to try insanity, but you`re also clever enough to sit with the police and say, oh,

I had to defend myself. That takes some knowledge of right from wrong.

SEDAGHATFAR: It does. And the fact that she fled the scene. That shows consciousness of guilt which would go against an insanity defense. So, she

has some problems here, but we don`t know all the facts. I just suspect that she will go with a not guilty by legal insanity plea. It`s a very,

very high bar. We know that it works in less than one percent of cases in which it`s used. So, we`ll have to wait and see how that works out for her

at the arraignment.

LALAMA: And also, Officer Jeanne MacKenzie, so she took off from the scene. So, I`m not asking you to make some sort of prosecutorial judgment

but she knew she needed to get away from the place where this reportedly happened.

MACKENZIE: Yes, she did. And she even stated that she set the house on fire to ensure that the 11-year-old was dead.

LALAMA: She -- wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. She said that?

MACKENZIE: Yes, she said that in her interview.

LALAMA: I`m stunned. You`re telling me that in her interview she said she set the house on fire to make certain that the 11-year-old she stabbed

multiple times was in fact dead?

MACKENZIE: Yes.

LALAMA: Anahita, hurry up, tell me. Give me an answer.

SEDAGHATFAR: That doesn`t -- that doesn`t sound good. That shows that maybe she did not have a mental break if she knew what she was doing even

after the stabbing of this little girl. So, I don`t know. She probably should not have had a conversation with the police. This is why we tell

criminal defendants when you`re being charged with something, don`t speak without an attorney, because even if she did have a viable defense, she may

have just ruined that for herself by giving that statement. That is a damning statement to make.

LALAMA: Right. And I am certain Tulsa P.D. did its due diligence and read her her rights.

SEDAGHATFAR: Right.

LALAMA: Up next, a Mother`s Day gift no mom would ever want to get. Sucker punched on a Brooklyn street. "ONE MORE THING" straight ahead.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

LALAMA: "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. Mother`s Day is supposed to be all about gifts, cards and flowers. Not sucker punches. But that`s

exactly what happened to two elderly women leaving a Brooklyn market on Sunday. A homeless man walked right up to them and decked them. That`s

when a nearby Good Samaritan who was also homeless, leapt into action, tackled the attacker, and held him until police came. The two ladies were

treated for their injuries and released while witnesses congratulated the homeless hero.

We`ll see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 Eastern. Thanks for watching. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

END