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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Casey Anthony; Five-Year-Old Lucas Hernandez`s Murder; Top 10 CNN Hero Stan Hays; Superhuman Rescue. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired May 29, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome to "Crime and Justice." Tonight a single

tweet shames a star into silence and sends her sitcom right down the drain. Roseanne is officially off the air. Brian Stelter is covering the

cancellation. Brian, this was not Roseanne Barr`s first controversial tweet but it might be her last one.

BRIAN STELTER, CNN SENIOR MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: You know, far from it, she is been posting non-sense on Twitter for years. The difference now that

this tweet was clearly racist, it was against a former Obama aide and ABC decided they had to terminate her show. I`ve never seen anything quite

like it.

BANFIELD: Hours. I mean, it`s remarkable. When get to some of the details can you Brian? And the legendary Dick Cavett is going to join me

live on this set as well and weigh in on the ramifications.

Also tonight, this jaw-dropping new interview with the parents of Casey Anthony. At the last place they saw their little granddaughter alive.

Justin Freiman is bringing this story to us. Justin, they`re not recovered from this at all yet, despite the 10 years.

JUSTIN FREIMAN, SR. PRODUCER, HLN CNN: That is right. And part of that fight is this the parents still cannot agree on just how their little

granddaughter died. Casey Anthony`s mom even going as far as saying Casey was an amazing mother who loved her daughter.

BANFIELD: All right. Looking forward to hear more about what they had to say and why they stormed off from the interview as well.

And there is this brand new Spiderman, hitting the small screen. A fearless 22-year-old man scaling four stories with his bare hands in

seconds flat to rescue a dangling little boy. How he is being rewarded and where the parents were when their child went over that railing. More on

that coming up in just a moment.

But first, the veteran comedian who is recent resurgence just died in its tracks, all thanks to a tweet that she wrote all by herself. Roseanne

Barr, tweeting this about a former Obama chief aide. Quote, Muslim brotherhood and planet of the apes had a baby. That is in reference to

this woman, Valerie Jarrett, a top Obama aide.

It is not the first time that Roseanne Barr has been accused of racist tweets and attacking left-wing Americans, but it was enough for ABC to

forego the promise of stellar ratings and millions upon millions of dollars and cancel this program, and cancel another season of this `90s revival,

all within hours of that tweet going out.

They went on to say, that is abhorrent, repugnant, and inconsistent with our values. Roseanne herself apologized after that, but tonight a shell-

shocked Hollywood is saying too little too late. As others ask where comedians need to draw the line.

I want to bring in my panel tonight. Former talk show host Dick Cavett and legend to television. He is going to weigh in with where we are in the

environment and the landscape today. Senior media correspondent at CNN and host of "Reliable sources" Brian Stelter is with me. Also, Marvet Britto

is an entertainment and P.R. and brand strategist. Steve Helling is a senior writer for "People" magazine. He knows a thing or two about what

works and what doesn`t on television, and also justice. So I`m going to start with you, and I`m going to say, Mr. Cavett, because I have trouble

calling you Dick. Even though it sounds off the air.

DICK CAVETT, FORMER TALK SHOW HOST, THE DICK CAVETT SHOW: Oh no, you can call me Mr. Dick.

BANFIELD: I think this is such a moment in time --

CAVETT: Yes, it is.

BANFIELD: -- where a network decides within hours to wipe millions off the slate, to wipe a television juggernaut that is so hard to harness, off of

its slate simply by saying it`s just the right thing to do. How do you see this?

CAVETT: I don`t care about the network`s millions. But I do care about the fact that it`s kind of a hostage situation. They should boot Roseanne

and replace her. All those actors who prayed for a job like this, getting a series like this, getting a new house out in California, or temporary

dwelling. Make their plans, move their kids around, get her out. People have been replaced before. Soap operas sometimes replace a character for

five days in a row, and nobody says anything.

BANFIELD: And no one notices.

CAVETT: And it comes back. If somebody says you can`t possibly do that, the question is, why not?

BANFIELD: Why not?

CAVETT: Ask Kevin Spacey.

BANFIELD: That is a really good point. Ask Kevin Spacey, because that happened in a nanosecond as well. He was replaced and the new movie was

spectacular. All the money in the world. Brian, didn`t that win awards as well?

STELTER: It did.

BANFIELD: They really made a statement, and they changed the landscape.

[18:05:03] STELTER: But that is part of the shame of today`s developments. Is that Roseanne`s disgusting tweets mean a lot of people are out of work.

It`s not just Roseanne Barr that is out of work now, she is off the air, but now a couple hundred employees, couple hundred staffers that worked her

show are suddenly out of work. And they`ll find a new show and put it on, but it`s sad for the producers and stars that worked with Roseanne Barr.

BANFIELD: Wait a minute, you are saying --

CAVETT: All those gaffers and best boys, and makeup people and the food people --

BANFIELD: And the actors. And you are saying they find another show.

CAVETT: Just because one woman does this, just one.

STELTER: Right.

BANFIELD: So the injustice there, the injustice of those people losing their job. Because, I know the gaffers may find another job in a while,

the lighting crew, the makeup artists may find another job in a while. But those stars found a brand-new resurgence in Roseanne as well. When you

have a show branded by the star`s name, is it as easy to do a replacement or has the landscape changed and gosh darn it, it is, you can do this?

CAVETT: Let us say that she drove her motorcycle off a cliff and her sister, Betty Ann, will replace her, come out from Kentucky or wherever.

You can easily, any half-assed -- half talented --

BANFIELD: You can say that on this show. It`s perfectly fine.

CAVETT: I`m going to save it for later.

BANFIELD: But Brian, do you think that this is the Charlie Sheen model, where they decided, you know, we can replace them and we will replace them

and the show didn`t do too bad?

STELTER: Right, right. You know, I think in this case, because her name was on the show that ABC felt it couldn`t take a half step like that. They

couldn`t suspend her and keep the show. They decided to move very quickly today and just take the drastic action of cancelling. I was e-mailing at a

source with Disney who said, look, we just felt enough was enough. There have been three or four of these moments where she was posting ridiculous

things on Twitter where it was hurting the show, hurting ABC, and they had just enough today.

And this source was saying to me, it was just a matter of time that action had to be taken. I do think we should put it in context. You know, she

was insulting to African Americans, she is also insulting to Muslims, by claiming Valerie Jarrett was part of the Muslim brotherhood. That is not

true either. She was promoting an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory about George Soros, earlier on Twitter today.

And there was a number of outrageous and racist tweets and that main there about Valerie Jarrett is the proximate cause of her firing, but there were

several others as well. I mean, this was bubbling up from the fever swamps of the internet, and here you have one of the biggest celebrities on

television embracing it. That was unacceptable to Disney.

BANFIELD: So, we were talking only what a couple of weeks ago when this show launched. I am trying to think of how many weeks has it been? It

feels like two, but I think it`s what --

STELTER: It`s been three months since the show launched. It just had its series finale not series -- not series finale, first season finale last

week. Ten million viewers, that is huge numbers for a new show, so ABC was loving this reboot. You know, they had Roseanne promoting it to

advertisers a couple weeks ago here in New York. They were preparing for a second season to launch in the fall. Now all that goes away.

CAVETT: I just had a --

BANFIELD: Hey, Dick.

CAVETT: What did you just call me?

BANFIELD: Stop it. Would this have happened --?

CAVETT: In olden times?

BANFIELD: -- at any time during your career? Could you have seen something bad enough for a corporation to say you`re done?

CAVETT: I tried in the cab to think of a parallel for this. And I can`t. But I did had a wonderful suggestion for Roseanne, because he is suffering

too, of course for her ludicrous performance. She should just say, I just discovered it, some crap-headed lunatic got hold of my tweet apparatus and

tweeted that terrible thing.

BANFIELD: It`s probably too late.

STELTER: It`s a little late now. Nice try, but I think she revealed her true self today.

BANFIELD: This is the first tweet that went out. And the dumb tweet that some would say, because this is what caused all of her issues. Then she

came up with an apology tweet and she said this, I apologize, I`m now leaving Twitter. So, it`s a mea culpa, she can`t go back from that. But

she also went on to say, and I`m going to give the longer version of her apology tweet. I apologize to Valerie Jarrett, and to all Americans, I`m

truly sorry for making a bad joke about her politics and her look. I should have known better. Forgive me, my joke was in bad taste. Dick, let

me ask you this. The time for meal culpa, there was an era where you could repair damage by falling on a sword, asking for forgiveness and the

audience would love it. They love a comeback. Do you think we still live in that era when you go this far?

CAVETT: No, I know you`re implying a good thing, that there is something about the -- oh, I hate to say that tonight guys, -- about the current

time, where things that shouldn`t necessarily be sucked in with all the baddies are sucked in with all the baddies.

[18:10:10] So, you can`t say the Weinstein`s and the Bill Cosby`s and the John Hill -- poor John Hill only had one accuser. I`m just thinking,

there`s something about the time now that is almost venomous here, even with our ages combined, to remember the McCarthy era.

BANFIELD: But we talk about it today.

CAVETT: Did you?

BANFIELD: We call talk about it today. It`s part of the political conversation now. I wonder if you`re proud of television today or -- I

mean, especially what happened today or if you`re not proud of what you see on television today.

CAVETT: I know it`s a terrible place to say this, but I don`t watch that much television. I`ve dwindled away from it. There was the golden age,

and then there was the long, crappy age. But now there are brilliant series and things on television that you hate to miss. And friends tell

you often, you`re not watching "The crown," you`re not watching --

BANFIELD: Why aren`t you? Why aren`t you watching television? This is, I mean you are Mr. Television. Why weren`t you watching?

CAVETT: Well, I try to watch those fine things that people recommend to me a lot. And then there`s -- there`s the fact that you have to spend a

certain amount of time, unfortunately a lot of it on the news networks, watching our so-called President.

STELTER: I hear that from a lot of people. That the best drama on TV is the Trump drama. I think today is partly reaction to Trump. This decision

by Disney, by corporate America, to take a stand against racism. We`ve seen that with regard to companies kicking out alleged sex abusers and we

have seen that today kicking out a woman who was posting racist tweets.

There`s a sense in the country that racism is bubbling up and that there are some Trump allies that are somehow supporting it or allowing it to

happen. And you see these giant corporations instead taking a stance. And it happens to be Disney today.

BANFIELD: And Brian that stand that Brian just referenced, it couldn`t have been more clear or quick. I don`t know of anything -- and step in

immediately if you can prove me wrong, but I don`t think I`ve ever seen anyone in business react with such alacrity. It was what, two hours,

three? I don`t know how long it took.

STELTER: It was decided within a couple of hours to fire her.

BANFIELD: Couple of hours, Bob Iger was out in front saying, this was just the right thing to do. He didn`t go into a long dissertation about lying,

he just said it is the right thing to do. Are you surprised that happened?

MARVET BRITTO, ENTERTIANMENT, P.R. AND BRAND STRATEGIST: I`m not surprised at all, because, Roseanne, probably should have paid attention to

the fact that there`s a woman of color in charge at Disney, and a woman who is over programming who probably didn`t take too kindly to a comment that

attacked people of color directly.

And so for Disney to be a company of moral standards and values, you know, obviously this nation and Roseanne`s popularity really reveals the moral

condition of this country. But Disney, as a corporation, had to quickly distance itself from her statements in order to really not allow one show

to become a liability to an entire brand.

CAVETT: Does anybody agree that to have 120 victims instead of just a woman who committed the dreadful act --

BANFIELD: It`s a good point.

BRITTO: What about the other victims, the other people of color who are also victims by her hateful statements?

CAVETT: What about them?

BRITTO: We can`t put money and finances, because I`m sure that some of those people who are out of work would agree and stand behind him and

support, they would rather work for a company like Disney that has integrity and has morals and values, stand behind that, because they can

get other jobs. I`m sure everyone in Hollywood will stand up to hire them.

BANFIELD: Steve Helling -- you know, "People" magazine, your publication has its finger on the pulse of all of America. There were pockets of

America that really identified with Roseanne`s Trump support, the character`s Trump support. And I`m wondering if there will be a backlash

from those people who felt they had somebody mirroring them and that had been missing from television. Will it somehow boomerang? Do you feel that

there could be something that ABC may suffer from this? For all the celebration, for those who say, congratulations for your quick, you know,

quick action, what about those who feel that Roseanne was their character?

STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, whenever anything controversial happens -- OK, when something controversial like this

happens, any decision that is made by ABC is going to have some backlash on one side or the other. That is just the way it works. So, yes, there will

be some backlash. I`m sure if you were to go on Twitter right now and look, there are people who are saying they`re going to boycott ABC.

[18:15:00] But I don`t think that will stick. I think that they made the choice that would be better for them in the long run, which was to get rid

of the liability. And yes, there will be a little bit of a kerfuffle for a few minutes and then it will kind of move on. And that is why they made a

choice they did.

BANFIELD: Brian? Last comment.

STELTER: I think the impulse to try to appeal to the heartland, to try to reach Trump voters, to try to make programing that is going to appeal to

red states and as well as blue states that is a great impulse. That is a good thing. I don`t think we should throw away that idea just because this

particular show, with particular star at the center, was not appropriate for ABC. I hope that idea does not go away as a result of this.

BANFIELD: OK. So I am going to ask you this --

CAVETT: It`s too bad too, because not only are there people out of work, but that show was honed in such a way that controversial stuff was on it.

STELTER: Right.

CAVETT: This side and that side of it. And this one over here and this one over here. And I think it did a lot of good. I think we`re killing

the messenger and his whole army.

BANFIELD: I have to let Brian go because I know that you`re going to be live here. Pretty much on call.

STELTER: I`ve got a call with another source actually, but yes.

BANFIELD: And I`ll ask you to stay, if you would, Dick, because I have some other questions for you coming up in about 44 minutes. It has to do

with the President`s reaction. I`m going to roll a sound bite right now from March 28th. That was when the President -- it was actually March

29th, the President talked about that day before March 28th, how excited he was about the "Roseanne" show`s premiere and his soaring ratings.

And we wanted to know what the President had to say about today. I am going to tell you about that at the top of the hour and Dick is going to

react to that at the top of the hour. And here`s what he had to say after the premiere. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look at Roseanne. I called her yesterday. Look at her ratings. Look at her ratings.

(APPLAUSE)

(CHEERS)

I got a call from Mark Burnett, he did "The Apprentice," he is a great guy. He said, Donald, I called just to say hello and to tell you, did you see

Roseanne`s ratings? I said Mark, how big were they? They were unbelievable. Over 18 million people, and it was about us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[18:0:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Some people are suspected of slaughtering their loved ones, but they`re let off, because there`s not enough proof they did it. With the

exception of perhaps O.J. Simpson, none of them is more famous than Casey Anthony. She was acquitted in 2011 of the death of her 2-year-old

daughter, whose remains were found wrapped up in the woods by the home where they lived with Casey`s parents.

And George and Cindy Anthony have faced their own fair share of accusations from the public and from Casey`s own lawyers who argued they found little

Caylee drowned in the pool and then buried her body themselves. Ten years after little Caylee vanished, it`s clear that George and Cindy are still

grieving deeply. Though they definitely don`t agree what happened to that little girl. In a tense interview with A&E.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I believe that it`s true. That is the only thing that makes sense to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That she drowned?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That she drowned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Casey gave Caylee too much of something. To possibly make her go to sleep. She didn`t wake up. Or if she did --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was an accident, though?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why would you give a child something to make them go to sleep, when that child was so content she would have fallen asleep

anywhere?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Cindy is reportedly hesitant to say that her daughter killed Caylee, but she doesn`t hold back a thing when she is accusing George of

turning Casey into a liar.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And George, Casey learned by example.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow, you`re really -- please, please, please don`t personally attack me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You lied to me for several years and that is where our daughter got it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Please don`t attack me about this. This is not supposed to be us, it doesn`t have to be a personal attack. I am not doing

that to you.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I gave you the benefit of the doubt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But you`re taking a totally different direction here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No. It`s very traumatic to me, because you`re making me relive everything again.

Who wants to relive their granddaughter`s death every -- I mean, damn it!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Steve Helling, Senior Writer for "People" magazine, he is still with us. He is also the author of "Outrage, the

Casey Anthony story." Also the Judge Belvin Perry, who presided over Casey Anthony`s trial and defense attorney, (inaudible) is with as well. Thank

you to all of you. Steve , that was such a bombshell moment, watching the Anthony`s, 10 years after you and I and Judge Perry all sat in the same

courtroom, day after day, week after week, month after month, and lived this saga. I would have thought ten years would have assuaged the sting a

little bit, but it appears from the special with Elizabeth Vargas, it has not assuaged a thing.

HELLING: It anything, it sounds like things have gotten worse. You know, I spent time with George and Cindy Anthony back when this all happened and

it was all raw and new and fresh.

[18:25:07] But they hadn`t turned on each other at that point. So to see them doing that, when the cameras are rolling for a national TV show,

certainly shows that there`s a lot of wounds there, and there`s a lot of wounds between the two of them that haven`t been repaired.

BANFIELD: And Judge Perry, for you, this must be particularly poignant, because when a court case comes in and out of your courtroom, it`s not as

though you get to sort of continue to see the lives left behind of the players whose lives played out before you, before the bench. Are you

surprised at what you`re seeing, the damage that Casey Anthony left behind?

BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: No, I`m not surprised. Whenever you have a family that is extremely dysfunctional, you expect to

find the drama that you have here. When you have a mom who wants to choose to believe that her granddaughter drowned, but she doesn`t necessarily want

to believe that her own son and husband molested her daughter, what else can you expect, but that type of drama? So it`s not surprising to me.

BANFIELD: Yes. And Steve, to be clear, I think what Elizabeth Vargas in this interview was able to draw out, beyond any clarity that we would need,

is that Cindy thinks that Caylee drowned and George thinks that Caylee was drugged by Casey. Did that seem to be the clearest message from this for

you?

HELLING: Yes, absolutely. That is clearly what they both think. And yet we`ve heard that over the last few years, but this was the first time that

they sat together, talked about what they thought and disagreed with each other on camera. So that was really fascinating to watch.

BANFIELD: Yes, and I want to play a little bit more of their -- I guess you could call it their discord. Their disharmony, so to speak. In that

they both argued in this interview about where Caylee and Casey would disappear to when they were gone for days. Although the other side of the

coin was, they were not gone for days. So just watch and see how that dynamic plays out. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`d be coming home on my afternoon shift, midnight, 1:00 in the morning and she wouldn`t be here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Caylee was here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most times. There was a few times she wasn`t. Because I think she was supposedly she was going to spend a night with nanny or one

of her friends.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: George, as far as Caylee goes, I know when that child was not here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. But you know, instead of being gone like overnight, coming home late, they`d be gone for two or three days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not during that time she wasn`t. George --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Six months before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes we did. It was like a couple different times she`d be gone for a couple of days. And then all this stuff happens.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey and Caylee didn`t stay out for two or three days, I know that for a fact.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to get upset with you. I don`t want to get upset anymore.

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is fine, George.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m just telling you what I witnessed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Steve Helling, seeing that, it is hard to believe, but it is true that George and Cindy are still very much in love with one another,

perhaps dependent on one another. Do you get the sense that there`s any risk of that ever going away after everything they`ve been through?

HELLING: I mean, they`re still together. And you know, it`s really interesting here that they are arguing over a very minor detail about

whether in 2008, Caylee was gone overnight or for a day or whatever. We`re not even seeing them argue right there about did Casey Anthony kill their

granddaughter. That is not what they`re arguing about. So, obviously their way of coping is for them just to pick at each other over everything.

Over these little details. And it`s fascinating to watch.

BANFIELD: I think you hit the nail on the head with "little details." Because to me one of the biggest details in that trial and I assume, Judge

Perry, you probably were astounded at smell testimony. I`m sure you would likely had never seen anything the likes of smell testimony being debated

by experts. But it was the issue of the smell in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car, and to hear George talk about it right now on, you know, on

this documentary, this A&E special is really alarming. Have a listen to what he said about that smell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got within about two, three feet max, away from the passenger side of the car. I smelled the worst smell that I could possibly

smell that brought back a memory from when I was a law enforcement officer of a decomposing body. That is what my brain, the smell of it. That is

what it triggered inside of my head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: You can just see Cindy`s body language. She is so uncomfortable with what he is saying and yet she was the person who called 911 to say, it

smells like there`s a god damn body in the car. Judge Perry, does this case stick with you? And do you have any particular reservations? Do you

feel any differently today, than say you did that day, or one year after or five years after? Now we`re 10 years after.

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: No. I don`t have any reservations. When you go back to that testimony, and if you can

recall, you go from Cindy, who`s verifying that it was a dead body, and that she perceived in the trial after she gets back up, that maybe its

garbage. She is the consummate apologist or excuse-maker for Casey. And that`s what she did throughout Casey`s life. She did it throughout the

trial.

BANFIELD: Do you believe that she`s not innocent? Do you believe, Judge Perry, that Casey`s guilty?

PERRY: I believe that the evidence clearly points to the fact that Casey Anthony had something to do with the disappearance and death of her

daughter. I think that evidence was crystal clear. I do think that reasonable minds would differ. And that`s what the jury did in this

particular case. But the evidence was there, if they chose to believe it. We don`t know why they did not choose to believe the evidence.

BANFIELD: Reasonable minds do differ, and that`s why a jury of your peers is critical in our constitution. But Judge Perry, you`re one of the most

reasonable minds. You`re a judge. Do you think that Casey killed Caylee?

PERRY: As I have stated before, I am never going to opine as to my own personal opinion. But I do think the evidence was there to substantiate

the fact that she was responsible for the death of her daughter.

BANFIELD: And you know, typically, you would see a civil case that might follow a wrongful death with that kind of information you just said,

responsibility. But they are all part of the same side. They are victims and they are also on the side of, say, the alleged perpetrator, because

they are all the same family. I am going to ask you both to stay with me. And Vinoo Varghese, I`m going to ask you to stay as well.

When we come back after the break, the reaction that George Anthony had, what he was thinking when he saw that jury pass its verdict. And as that

verdict was read, not guilty, he has some choice thoughts about what went through his head at that moment. That`s coming up after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:35:00] BANFIELD: We`re still talking about the fiery new interview out of Florida, where Casey Anthony`s parents are airing some dirty

laundry, arguing over their daughter and whether or not they raised a murderer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, but you have got to understand, she was an awesome mother. If Casey was a bad mother, we would have been questioning

every darn thing she did. There weren`t any red flags with the care. Caylee was a happy child. She was well taken care of. Casey loved her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Awesome mother. My panel is still with me. And to the three of you, the question that George Anthony was posed by Elizabeth Vargas in this

A&E special, about his reaction to the verdict. I sat on the edge of my chair, wanting to hear. Because I felt his anger in that courtroom after

his reputation had been sludged through the muck, put through the sewer.

You could put any kind of metaphor you want. But he was destroyed in that courtroom. And here`s what he had to say about his thoughts upon hearing

the verdict. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When they read the first verdict through, not guilty, you`re kidding me? I mean it was -- first it was murder, then it was

manslaughter. She`ll at least get something out of this. She should have got something for Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Judge Perry, everybody in that courtroom was admonished before that verdict was read not to react, and that there would be severe

repercussions if anybody had any untoward behavior in that courtroom. But I want to ask you, knowing what George had been through. Had he had a

reaction, would you have reprimanded him, knowing the emotions that we`d all lived through for months?

PERRY: The simple answer to that question would be no. I would probably ask him to calm down. If he did not calm down, I would have simply asked

the court deputies to remove him.

BANFIELD: And Vinoo, for our (Inaudible) defense attorney, the confusion of that family, a young woman in a pink frock t-shirt, sort of frumpy-

looking courtroom costume, as many of us saw it. To dress down you know her image as the sexy mom who was out partying and dancing while that child

was rotting. She was not supported by her family in the celebration that should be a family victory.

[18:39:58] So walk me through what a defense attorney would do at this point, because Jose Baez was in the crosshairs of Casey`s father.

VINOO VARGHESE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, a big part of the defense was that Casey Anthony didn`t tell this was an accidental drowning, and she didn`t

report it right away because she feared her father, who she said, had been molesting her since she was eight years old. So this was a major part of

the defense. So it`s not surprising that George is having the reaction that he does, because in essence, he was blamed you know for the death.

So look, you know this kind of interview is just really surprising. It`s disheartening. I mean at this point I am not sure why they`re doing this.

I do you know have a concern. You know Judge, with all due respect, I think -- you`re a judge. The evidence spoke. The jury came back with a

verdict. They found her not guilty of intentional murder, and they convicted her for lying to authorities.

As a practicing attorney, it concerns me when a judge makes comments about what he thinks the verdict should have been.

PERRY: If you listen carefully to what I said.

(CROSSTALK)

PERRY: Let me address this. If you listen carefully to what I said, I said the evidence would support a verdict if you believe that. I did not

give an opinion as to her guilt or innocence. So you need to stand corrected, because I didn`t say that.

VARGHESE: I am not sure how that`s different than saying that you believe she was guilty.

(CROSSTALK)

VARGHESE: And I am just concerned.

PERRY: On a motion for judgment of acquittal judges, each and every day rule, as to whether or not there is sufficient evidence, that if the jury

chooses to believe that evidence, it would sustain a verdict. And that`s simply what I did, if you had listened carefully.

(CROSSTALK)

VARGHESE: That doesn`t mean there was enough evidence to convict her.

(CROSSTALK)

PERRY: You`re hearing what you want to hear, Sir. And you`re saying what you want to say.

BANFIELD: We have a delay. And I am just going to jump in because we can talk about two seconds over one another without hearing the other person

beginning. But I do want to ask this. This case was a landscape-changer. I think all of us can agree. There are a few cases, Lizzie Borden perhaps

might be one of them. But few cases that seize the country and seize the fascination of the country like Casey Anthony did.

And maybe some more rays were different and rules didn`t apply exactly as they would for every other garden variety case. But this was something

that was remarkable. Steve Helling, we do these interviews all the time, and we ask families if they found closure after trials and verdicts are

rendered. And this is what Elizabeth Vargas was able to get out of the Anthony`s, when it came to that weird notion of closure on the 10 year

anniversary of this saga. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We still don`t have closure after 10 years, because there are so many different ideas of what happened to her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t know what happened to her?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t know, and that`s the thing. We still don`t know.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can`t imagine how painful this must be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s the worst nightmare that you could ever have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Steve, George still goes into Casey and Caylee`s room on a regular basis. Walk me through a little of that color from the A&E

documentary.

STEVE HELLING, PEOPLE MAGAZINE, SENIOR WRITER: Well, you know nothing has changed in Caylee`s room, in Casey`s room. The place that is out back,

nothing has changed. So this is a shrine to that -- to what life was like in 2008 when Caylee was still alive and Casey was out doing her thing. So

yes, George goes in there and George has no closure either. And it`s not even bittersweet. It`s just bitter for him to go and look at this

remembrance of what used to be.

BANFIELD: Yeah. And apparently, Casey`s room still has all of the photos. All the pictures of Caylee are out in there. George apparently goes into

that room to talk to Caylee, to talk to little Caylee, and has said he never wants a relationship with Casey, never. Says he has no interest in

having any relationship with his daughter. It`s such a painful saga.

And again, like I said, the landscape of criminal justice and understanding it and following it changed with the Casey Anthony story. Steve Helling as

always, thanks so much. Judge Belvin Perry, it`s always good to see you. I spent a lot of time with you, so it`s always nice to revisit.

PERRY: Thank you.

[18:44:50] BANFIELD: And Vinoo Varghese, I will ask you to stay on if you will. Today in Sacramento, accused Golden State Killer, Joseph James

DeAngelo appeared in court. Not this image, just going to take that down for a minute. It has nothing to do with what I am telling you. The

resemblance of this man to a Hollywood killer, it was hard to mistake this weird similarity with the image of Hannibal Lecter.

Look at that picture. He`s dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit. He`s walking into a cell that`s held within a courtroom and staring down the

judge. You can tell, this is pretty much the most stark contrast you could conjure up to the first court appearance that he had, where he was wheeled

in looking like a very old man, infirm, and dazed and confused. Not like this, standing on his own, staring down that judge.

He listened attentively to everything that was going on, but his eyes did not avert. They stayed solely on the judge. Even though other people in

that courtroom were speaking, that was the gaze the entire hearing. He never took his eyes off the judge. And we are not taking our eyes off this

story either. We`re going to continue to follow that as more evidence comes in and the case proceeds against him.

I want to take you to Kansas now. The pictures we showed you a moment ago, this little boy, five years old, missing for months. His remains have just

been found. And police say it was ultimately his own stepmother that led them to the find.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:50:00] BANFIELD: The life and death of five-year-old Lucas Hernandez is filled with tragedy. And now many questions that demand answers. Lucas

went missing from his home in Wichita, Kansas back in February. At the time, his stepmom, Emily Glass, told the officers that she had seen him

earlier in the day in his bedroom.

According to police, Glass says she went for a shower, and then took a three-hour nap only to find him missing when she woke up. Lucas` body was

just found a couple days ago under a bridge. And police say it was that stepmother, the girlfriend of Lucas` dad, who actually took a private

investigator to the site where Lucas` decomposing body was found.

She`s been arrested. She`s been booked into jail, but it`s for felony obstruction of justice, not murder. And the investigation is ongoing. So

Defense Attorney Vinoo Varghese, no murder. I think a lot people would wonder why not. Why not?

VARGHESE: Because I think clearly the police don`t have enough evidence to charge her yet. I think that`s what they`re waiting for. They`re charging

on obstruction. I am not sure how it`s obstruction.

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Because she said he was missing, but she seemed to know where his body was.

VARGHESE: Well, according to her, she found a private investigator. And I think the concern here for her is that there`s no privilege with this guy.

So initially, apparently the investigator refused to speak to the police, but there are no protections for her.

BANFIELD: Got a lawyer.

VARGHESE: Whatever she said to this guy is going to come out or he`s going to held in contempt.

BANFIELD: Sad story. And you know the investigation is still going on. So the there very well could be a murder charge. You`ll never know.

Vinoo, stand by if you will. A real-life Spiderman, performing super human feats of accomplishment, saving a four-year-old boy dangling from a

balcony, how did he do this?

Climb four stories with his bare hands in seconds flat, and p.s., where were the kid`s parents? Not the people on the right.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:55:00] BANFIELD: When disaster strikes, top 10 CNN Hero Stan Hays and his pit master buddies bring comfort in the form of barbecue to those who

are in need. This week, Stan is expanding his service to honor those who serve our country all year long.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re here with the Gary Sinise Foundation at the Invincible Spirit Festival.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you guys doing? Do you want a pulled pork sandwich?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re cooking for 6,500 to 7,000 people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Being here, where these men and women have given so much protecting and serving our country, it`s pretty special.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an awesome event, the barbecue is stellar.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Barbecue is about bringing people together. For us, this is the biggest thank you we can give the men and women that have

served.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To find out more about what`s happening with Operation Barbecue Relief or to nominate someone you think should be our CNN Hero, please go

to CNNheroes.com right now.

We have one more thing for you tonight. It`s a super human rescue that you simply have to see to believe, a 22-year-old man leaping into action like a

real-life Spiderman, when he spots a child dangling from a fourth floor balcony. The crowd below cheered him on as he scrambled up a sign of a

building, a nearby neighbor to the right looking by helplessly, unable to reach that child because of a dividing wall between them.

The four-year-old boy was home alone because the dad was out playing Pokemon Go. That dad is facing charges. But that hero who climbed the

building, for his efforts, he`s being granted French citizenship and being congratulated by the leaders of the country in person and by us. Because

we think he`s awesome. God bless the people who do that, right?

Next hour of CRIME & JUSTICE starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Expressing your views, as crazy as they may be.

BANFIELD (voice-over): You are what you say and sometimes the repercussions can last a lifetime, just ask Roseanne Barr, who went from

riches to rags in the blink of a tweet.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You were kind of the original crazy tweeter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not supposed to be about us.

BANFIELD: Their daughter is Casey Anthony.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m just as much a victim as the rest of you.

BANFIELD: Found not guilty of killing her 2-year-old daughter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was an awesome mother.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There wasn`t any red flags.

BANFIELD: But the accusations are still flying, this time by her parents.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey had learned by example.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Wow, you`re really -- please, please don`t personally attack me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You lied to me for several years and that`s where our daughter got it.

BANFIELD: George and Cindy Anthony`s scorching one-on-one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don`t want to get upset with you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s fine, George.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just know what I witnessed.

BANFIELD: In the same home where little Caylee went missing. On the ten- year anniversary of a tortured tale.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don`t touch that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don`t know. That`s the thing. It`s the worst nightmare that you could ever have.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Good evening. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. Welcome back to the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Tonight, a single tweet heads sent Hollywood into a tailspin. Roseanne Barr has been fired. And the hit revival of her `90s sitcom is officially

off the air. ABC announced it was cancelling season 2 of "Roseanne" just hours after the veteran comedian tweeted this early morning dig at former

Obama chief aide Valerie Jarrett.

Quote "Muslim brotherhood and plan of the apes had a baby, equals V.J., Valerie Jarrett."

It is not the first time Roseanne Barr has been accused of racial or controversial tweets targeting left-wing Americans. It`s something that

she has actually taken credit for like watch this on ABC`s Jimmy Kimmel.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY KIMMEL, COMEDIAN: You were kind of the original crazy tweeter.

ROSEANNE BARR, COMEDIAN: Yes, Trump totally stole my act.

KIMMEL: He stole that from you.

BARR: I ran my whole campaign on twitter in 2012.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: But after everything Roseanne Barr has said on twitter, this is what broke the camel`s back, ABC calling the tweet abhorrent and repugnant,

and choosing to deny another season, despite the fact that this was a record-breaking ratings program. They said this because they wanted to do

quote "the right thing." And Roseanne herself has apologized for going after Jarrett`s looks and her politics. But it certainly does seem to be a

too little too late story for everybody involved at this point.

I want to bring in my panel, Entertainment Tonight host and CNN contributor Nischelle Turner is with me, pop culture expert and TV journalist Jawn

Murray, former talk show host Dick Cavett, and legend of the screen, may I add, is here with me in New York and president of the reputation doctor,

Mike Paul is with me. And defense attorney Vinoo Varghese.

Dick Cavett, I want to begin with you because you`re Dick Cavett.

DICK CAVETT, FORMER TALK SHOW HOST, THE DICK CAVETT SHOW: OK.

BANFIELD: And you know TV more than any of us who think we know TV.

CAVETT: I`ll be the judge of that, but go ahead.

BANFIELD: I want to get your reaction to this, to this happening. Did it surprise you?

CAVETT: It startled me. I learned about it a scant four hours ago. I thought it must be old news that I had missed, because it seemed so

impossible, improbable. Then I saw the details of the tweet that she sent out, and I thought, wow, I wonder if anybody`s going to get upset about

this. I think there`s an answer to this. You can send all these people home because I have it all worked out.

BANFIELD: You got it all worked out?

CAVETT: Fire her, of course. Get the writers and everybody that put together an episode, give them a few weeks with that same cast. The sad

thing is, it is like if a Nazi ran into a house in a war movie and they blew up the house killing the family and the grandma and the kids --

BANFIELD: The collateral damage, so to speak, right?

CAVETT: Yes, collateral. One of the worst euphemisms in society.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you something just in the landscape of the television industry that you have come through, and you watch now, I suppose in

wonder. I mean, I sometimes watch in wonder at what`s happening in the news and the ripple effect into television. It`s a two-part question.

Would this have happened when you came through the television industry? Would the reaction have been so swift and so severe?

[19:05:19] CAVETT: I would think that some of the things that are related to Me Too and all of the other movements that are making the world better

in some people feel, I think there`s probably some dose of that in there, but it would have happened back in the days when the Roseanne Barr, that

show started in its first formation, maybe not.

BANFIELD: But if when the Dick Cavett show was on?

CAVETT: But it would have been comparable to possibly upsetting the Islam nation. I mean. she should be rather careful.

BANFIELD: So when you were broadcasting your program, the Dick Cavett show, would this have happened in your era?

CAVETT: I can`t think of a parallel for it, unless they canned me and got somebody who looked exactly like me to do the show.

BANFIELD: There`s never been another you.

CAVETT: But why not fire her, there are 20 good New York actresses who could play Roseanne or Roseanne`s sister, it`s not that far-fetched. I

mean, ask Kevin Spacey.

BANFIELD: Sure, you know. And by the way, I was thinking about the question as I was asking you, and then realized, I don`t think anybody

would have damed to say something like that, once upon a time in the golden era of television. I think everybody was so much more polite and

respectful and knew the consequences and were governed by a different set of social parameters.

CAVETT: And if I had been in charge, I would have said there would be no censorship. I have been a victim of it in a couple ludicrous examples.

One including Jawn Lennon and Yoko`s son as the nigger of the world. And the network said, we are going to cut that song. And I said, you can`t, I

have got the Lennons for you. You can`t. So they said, OK, the song will play, but you will tape an introduction to is, sneak in the show, saying we

know you might be offended.

BANFIELD: Wow.

CAVETT: Well, they played the song, 400 protests came in. None of them about the song, but as one woman put it, that mealy-mouthed speech you

forced Dick to say at the beginning, don`t you know we are adults? So I had hope for America at that point.

BANFIELD: Well, that answers the question about this kind of thing as the (INAUDIBLE). I guess things were very different in a good way and in bad

way, I supposed.

Nischelle Turner, can you jump in on this for me? Because Dick made a really good point. Fire the perpetrator, but don`t throw the baby out with

the bath water. Could you see in -- listen. You have covered Hollywood forever and a day. Could you see a scenario where a Kevin Spacey could,

you know, exit out of all the money in the world and it could still be an Oscar-winning movie? It could still be an Emmy-winning show with someone

else at the helm?

NISCHELLE TURNER, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Yes and no. The yes way, there`s a lot of talented actors on that show that could make a great show. The no part

of me says, the show`s called "Roseanne." So there`s not really much else you can do with it besides just doing a whole new show. I don`t really

know how you can retool this show because she is the title character.

BANFIELD: What about Charlie Sheen, though?

TURNER: That was called "two and a half men." I mean, they did work around that. It was not named the Charlie Sheen show. It was not named

Charlie. You know what I`m saying? So when that moniker is on it, when that`s what it`s labelled, it`s hard to change it around.

I understand what he`s saying, though, and wouldn`t that be lovely if they could do that. And who knows, maybe ABC will try to get these actors

together again and do something different. But in this situation, I don`t think that could be possible.

BANFIELD: Mike Paul, Bob Iger, the head of Disney, he was so quick to react. I mean, in this day and age, to see something within hours of the

event, there wasn`t this quiet contemplation, days to react, hiring the reputation doctor to say, Mike, what do we do here? They literally -- I

mean, it was like lightning. Do you see any other way today when there`s that kind of -- I mean, acrimony that a tweet can engender, do you see any

other solution?

MIKE PAUL, PRESIDENT, THE REPUTATION DOCTOR: Social media`s changed the entire game. Social media is media today. You don`t have to wait until,

unfortunately, a great program like Ashleigh`s in the evening to get your news. In fact, many of the programs are being led by what is breaking

throughout the night before we even get into morning.

A snafu travels the world from here to China in half a second. So the data that a Disney, ABC could get from a snafu within seconds, let alone hours

from what are the advertisers thinking, what are the consumers who watch the show thinking, what are the various groups that fight for equality in

America thinking? Within seconds you can get that data now from social media. That`s changed everything.

[19:10:37] BANFIELD: By the way, we are in a news cycle right now. It used to be called the 24-hour news cycle. It`s now called the 20-minute

news cycle. And it literally isn`t a euphemism either. It is true. It really is a 20-minute news cycle.

I want to bring you in, Jawn Murray, if I can, but not before I want our viewers to watch, I think, one of the more poignant clips of the "Roseanne"

show that brought her back into the (INAUDIBLE) that brought her out of the obscurity after decades and launched her into the television stratosphere.

I don`t think I need to tell you, Jawn, how difficult it is to get a hit show these days. It is probably one in a thousand that would workout. And

this one worked out. And in part some say because her character became a Trump supporter which was something so many in America hadn`t seen before.

Have a look at this clip.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for making America great again.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How could you have voted for him, Roseanne?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He talked about jobs, Jackie. He said he`d shake things up. I mean, this might come as a complete shock to you, but we

almost lost our house the way things are going.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you looked at the news, because now things are worse?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not on the real news.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, please!

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: First, let`s say grace. Jackie, would you like to take a knee?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s up, deplorable?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What`s up with the girl`s clothes?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This just feels like me. I like colors that pop. It is more creative.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I should have tried to understand why you voted the crazy way that you did.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I should have understood that, you know, you want the government to give everybody free health care because you are a good-

hearted person who can`t do simple math.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Jawn, do you think that the forces that brought the reboot of Roseanne back into the TV stratosphere could be very upset with this

reaction from ABC, even though so much of the media is celebrating it?

JAWN MURRAY, POP CULTURE EXPERT/TV JOURNALIST: Well, Ashleigh, let me say this. You know, what I like to call government-sanctioned network, also

known as FOX News, they`re the only people right now defending Roseanne in what is going on.

But Roseanne was a success when she aired the first time around. The reason the show was canceled was because she was a problematic personality.

The show is only back on television because of its prior success. And Hollywood follows the ball. And reboots is what everybody is doing. And

because other networks was having success, Sarah Gilbert and John Goodman was able to go to ABC and convince them to do this.

But ABC has no problem abandoning something that`s problematic. `The Chew" ratings are great. It is the third most successful daytime talk show. But

because of the Me Too scandal with Mario Batali, they cancelled it recently.

And so the president of ABC entertainment, a woman of color, Channing Dungey, I`m told by speaking to higher-ups off the record in ABC today,

that before she even had her breakfast, they were reviewing the clause in Roseanne`s contract. She had a morality clause which would probably

prevent ABC from having to compensate her. Before she had her morning breakfast, a plan was being put in place to cancel this because she

understood the reference and the historical aspects of it.

BANFIELD: So the interesting that Miss Dungey would say that.

But Nischelle Turner, is there another network that would pick this up? It`s a hit. And that`s really a --

TURNER: It`s funny that you say that. When I was leaving our lot where we shoot "Entertainment Tonight" today, I heard a woman saying, why can`t

another network just pick this show up? Why can`t it just go somewhere else?

I think it`s too toxic. I think it is way too toxic. I think Roseanne, like Jawn was talking about, has been too much of a problematic star. And

when you have that, in the era that we are in now, it is a different era. Things are changing, slowly but surely, they are changing. I don`t know if

someone else can take the risk or would take the risk for Roseanne.

BANFIELD: It`s interesting that you say that. When the President heard about Roseanne`s debut, he called her on the 28th of March.

TURNER: Yes, he did.

BANFIELD: And I want you to hear him talk about his phone call to Roseanne. Took time out of his schedule to call and congratulate her.

Have a listen to how he put it the day after.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look at Roseanne. I called her yesterday. Look at her ratings. Look at her ratings. I got a call

from Mark Burnett, he did "the Apprentice." He`s a great guy. He said Donald, I called just to say hello and to tell you, did you see Roseanne`s

ratings? I said, Mark, how big were they? They were unbelievable. Over 18 million people. And it was about us.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[19:15:13] BANFIELD: So that was on the 28th of March. And obviously reporters wanted to know what the president had to say today about the

cancellation. And through Sarah Sanders, the president`s spokesperson, press secretary, said, the president`s been extremely focused on North

Korea, trade deals, rebuilding our military, that`s what he`s spending his time on, not responding to other things.

But on that day that he picked up the phone and took time out to call Roseanne as opposed to give a comment, Jared Kushner was under

investigation for an ethics violation, that was launched. Mark Zuckerberg was testifying before Congress and Kim Jong-un was meeting with the Chinese

president, which was very, very busy.

I say that because, Dick Cavett, sometimes you have to know your audience, right? If you are trying to put television together, you have to know your

audience. Was "Roseanne" perhaps following the lead of what her audience was eating up in the trump character and perhaps became that character?

And is that suicidal?

CAVETT: That would make an interesting psychological novel if that`s true.

BANFIELD: I have your next one.

CAVETT: I think ingenious on your part. But Trump loves saying 18 million, doesn`t he? Eighteen million people, about as many who attended

his first inaugural.

BANFIELD: It felt to ten million, I should say.

But I mean, it`s interesting. Maybe he will. And by the way, Brian Stelter, our senior media correspondent, said that he thinks it`s possible

Roseanne may be through her publicist putting out a contrite statement a little later on today.

Thank you to all my guests here. All brilliant. And Dick Cavett, please come back.

CAVETT: OK. How`s ten minutes from now?

BANFIELD: That would be great. And Nischelle, come back to CNN please. I miss you, girl.

TURNER: Listen. I miss you guys. You know I do.

BANFIELD: You are so good. Thank you, everybody.

After almost ten years, ten years if you can believe it, Casey Anthony, the saga, it exploded onto the world stage. And now her parents are speaking

out. Wait until you hear what they say and what they say to each other next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:22:05] BANFIELD: Some people are suspected of slaughtering their loved ones, but they are let off because there`s just not enough proof that they

did it. And with the exception of perhaps O.J. Simpson, none of them is more famous than Casey Anthony.

She was acquitted in 2011 of the death of her 2-year-old daughter, whose remains were found wrapped up in the woods by the home where they lived

with Casey`s parents. And George and Cindy Anthony have faced their own share of accusations from the public and from Casey`s own lawyers who

argued they found little Caylee drowned in the pool and then buried her body themselves.

Ten years after little Caylee vanished, it`s clear that George and Cindy are still grieving deeply. Though they definitely don`t agree what

happened to that little girl. In a tense interview with A&E.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: I believe that it`s true. That`s the only thing that makes sense to me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That she drowned?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That she drowned.

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: Casey gave Caylee too much of something, to possibly make her go to sleep. She didn`t wake up. Or if

she did --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was an accident, though?

G. ANTHONY: Why would you give a child something to make them go to sleep, when that child was so content she would have fallen asleep anywhere?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Cindy is reportedly hesitant to say that her daughter killed Caylee, but she doesn`t hold back a thing when she`s accusing George of

turning Casey into a liar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

G. ANTHONY: Started with her, and taking money out.

C. ANTHONY: And George, Casey learned by example.

G. ANTHONY: Wow, you`re really -- please, please, please don`t personally attack me.

C. ANTHONY: You lied to me for several years and that`s where our daughter got it.

G. ANTHONY: Do not personally attack me at this.

C. ANTHONY: No, I`m not.

G. ANTHONY: This is not supposed to be about us.

C. ANTHONY: I understand that.

G. ANTHONY: Not supposed to be a personal attack on us.

C. ANTHONY: But I mean.

G. ANTHONY: I`m not doing that to you.

C. ANTHONY: I gave you the benefit of the doubts.

G. ANTHONY: But you are taking a totally different direction here.

C. ANTHONY: It`s very traumatic to me because you are making me relive everything again.

Who wants to relive their granddaughter`s death every (bleep)! I mean, damn it!

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Steve Helling, senior writer for "People" magazine. He is still with us. He is also the author of "Outrage: the

Casey Anthony story." Also judge Belvin Perry presided over Casey Anthony`s trial, and defense attorney Vinoo Varghese is with me as well.

Thank you to all of you.

Steve, that was such a bombshell moment, watching the Anthonys ten years after you and I and judge Perry all sat in the same courtroom, day after

day, week after week, month after month, and lived this saga. I would have thought ten years would have assuaged the sting a little bit, but it

appears from the special with Elizabeth Vargas, it has not assuaged a thing.

STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: If anything, it sounds like things have gotten worse. You know, I spent time with George and Cindy

Anthony back when this all happened, and it was all raw and new and fresh. But they hadn`t turned on each other at that point. So to see them doing

that, when the cameras are rolling for a national TV show, certainly shows that there`s a lot of wounds there, and there`s a lot of wounds between the

two of them that haven`t been repaired.

[19:25:23] BANFIELD: And Judge Perry, for you, this must be particularly poignant, because when a court case comes in and out of your courtroom,

it`s not as though you get to sort of continue to see the lives left behind of the players whose lives played out before you, before the bench. Are

you surprised at what you are seeing, the damage that Casey Anthony left behind?

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: No, I`m not surprised. Whenever you have a family that is extremely dysfunctional, you

expect to find the drama that you have here. When you have a mom who wants to choose to believe that her granddaughter drowned, but she doesn`t

necessarily want to believe that her own son and husband molested her daughter, what else can you expect but that type of drama? So it`s not

surprising to me.

BANFIELD: Yes. And Steve, to be clear, I think what Elizabeth Vargas in this interview was able to draw out, beyond any clarity that we would need,

is that Cindy thinks that Caylee drowned and George thinks that Caylee was drugged by Casey. Did that seem to be the clearest message from you?

HELLING: Yes, absolutely. That`s clearly what they both think. And you know, we have heard that over the last few years, but this was the first

time they sat together, talked about what they thought and disagreed with each other on camera. So this was really fascinating to watch.

BANFIELD: Yes. And I want to play a little bit more of their -- I guess you could call it their discord. Their disharmony, so to speak. In that

they both argued in this interview about where Caylee and Casey would disappear to when they were gone for days. Although the other side of the

coin was, they were not gone for days. So just watch and see how that dynamic plays out. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

G. ANTHONY: So I would be coming home on my afternoon shift, midnight, 1:00 in the morning and she wouldn`t be here.

C. ANTHONY: But Caylee was here.

G. ANTHONY: Most times. There was a few times she wasn`t. Because that`s when she was -- supposedly she was going to go spend a night with nanny or

one of her friends.

C. ANTHONY: George, as far as Caylee goes, I know when that child was not here.

G. ANTHONY: OK, but instead of being gone and coming home late, they would be gone for two or three days.

C. ANTHONY: Not during that time she wasn`t. George --

G. ANTHONY: Six months before. Couple different times she would be gone for days. Then when all this stuff happened --

C. ANTHONY: Casey and Caylee didn`t stay out for two or three days, I know that for a fact.

G. ANTHONY: Listen. I don`t want to get upset with you.

C. ANTHONY: That`s fine, George.

G. ANTHONY: I`m just telling you what I witnessed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: Steve Helling, seeing that, it is hard to believe, but it is true that George and Cindy are still very much in love with one another,

perhaps dependent on one another. Do you get the sense that there`s any risk of that ever going away after everything they`ve been through?

HELLING: I mean, they are still together. And you know, it`s really interesting here that they are arguing over a very minor detail about

whether this 2008, Caylee was gone overnight or for a day or whatever. We are not even seeing them argue right there about did Casey Anthony kill

their granddaughter. That`s not what they are arguing about. So obviously, their way of coping is for them just to pick at each other over

everything. Over these little details. And it`s fascinating to watch.

BANFIELD: I think you hit the nail on the head with "little details," because to me one of the biggest details in that trial and I assume, Judge

Perry, you probably were astounded at smell testimony. I`m sure you would likely never seen anything the likes of smell testimony being debated by

experts. But it was the issue of the smell in the trunk of Casey Anthony`s car. And to hear George talk about it right now on this documentary, on

this A&E special, is really alarming. Have a listen to what he said about that smell.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

G. ANTHONY: I got within about two, three feet max, away from the passenger side of the car. I smelled the worst smell that I could possibly

smell that brought back a memory from when I was a law enforcement officer of a decomposing body. That`s what my brain, the smell of it, that`s what

it triggered inside of my head.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: You can just see Cindy`s body language. She was so uncomfortable with what he`s saying and yet she was the person who called

911 to say, it smells like there`s a God damn body in the car. Judge Perry, does that case stick with you? And do you have any particular

reservations? Do you feel any differently today than you say you did that day or one year after or five years after? Now, we`re 10 years after?

JUDGE BELVIN PERRY, PRESIDED OVER CASEY ANTHONY TRIAL: Well, I don`t have any reservations. You know, when you go back to that testimony, and if you

can recall, you go from Cindy who`s verifying that it was a dead body, and that she perceived in the trial after she gets back up that maybe is

garbage. She is the consummate apologist or excuse-maker for Casey. And that`s what she did throughout Casey`s life. She did it throughout the

trial.

BANFIELD: Do you believe that she`s -- that she`s not innocent? Do you believe, Judge Perry, that Casey`s guilty?

PERRY: I believe that the evidence clearly points to the fact that Casey Anthony had something to do with the disappearance and death of her

daughter. I think that evidence was crystal clear. I do think that reasonable minds would differ, and that`s what the jury did in this

particular case. But the evidence was there, if they chose to believe it. We don`t know why they did not choose to believe the evidence.

BANFIELD: Reasonable minds do differ, and that`s why a jury of your peers is critical in our constitution. But Judge Perry, you`re one of the most

reasonable minds, you`re a judge. Do you think that Casey killed Caylee?

PERRY: As I`ve stated before, I`m never going to opine as to my own personal opinion, but I do think the evidence was there to substantiate the

fact that she was responsible for the death of her daughter.

BANFIELD: And you know, typically you would see a civil case that might follow a wrongful death with that kind of information you just said,

responsibility, but they are all part of the same side, they are victims and they are also on the side of, say, the alleged perpetrator, because

they are all the same family. I`m going to ask you both to stay with me. And Vinoo Varghese, I`m going to ask you to stay as well. When we come

back after the break, the reaction that George Anthony had, what he was thinking when he saw that jury pass its verdict, and as that verdict was

read, not guilty, he had some choice thoughts about what went through his head at that moment. That`s coming up after the break.

[19:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: We`re still talking about the fiery new interview out of Florida where Casey Anthony`s parents are airing some dirty laundry, arguing over

their daughter and whether or not they raised a murderer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CINDY ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S MOTHER: OK, but you got to understand, she was an awesome mother. If Casey would have been a bad mother, we would

have been questioning every darn thing she did. There wasn`t any red flags with the care. Caylee was a happy child, she was well-taken care of.

Casey loved her.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Awesome mother. My panel is still with me, and to the three of you, the question that George Anthony was posed by Elizabeth Vargas in this

A&E special, about his reaction to the verdict. I sat on the edge of my chair, wanting to hear, because I felt his anger in that courtroom after

his reputation had been sludged through the muck, put through the sewer. You could put any kind of metaphor to it you want, but he was destroyed in

that courtroom. And here`s what he had to say about his thoughts upon hearing the verdict. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE ANTHONY, CASEY ANTHONY`S FATHER: When they read the very first verdict through, not guilty, I`m like, are you kidding me? I mean, it was

-- first it was murder, then it was manslaughter. I`m like, she`ll at least get something out of this. She should have got something for Caylee.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Judge Perry, everybody in that courtroom was admonished before that verdict was read not to react and that there would be severe

repercussions if anybody had any untowards behavior in that courtroom. But I want to ask you, knowing what George had been through, had he had a

reaction, would you have reprimanded him, knowing the emotions that we`d all lived through for months?

PERRY: The simple answer to that question would be no. I would probably ask him to calm down. If he did not calm down, I would have simply asked

the court deputies to remove him.

BANFIELD: And Vinoo Varghese, as a defense attorney, the confusion of that family, a young woman in a pink frock t-shirt, sort of frumpy-looking

courtroom costume, as many of us saw it, to dress down her, you know, her image as the sexy mom who was out partying and dancing while that child was

rotting. She was not supported by her family in the celebration that should be a family victory. So, walk me through what a defense attorney

would do at this point, because Jose Baez was in the crosshairs of Casey`s father.

[19:40:11] VINOO VARGHESE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, a big part of the defense was that Casey Anthony didn`t tell this is an accidental drowning

and she didn`t report it right away because she feared her father who she said had been molesting her since she was 8 years old. So, this was a

major part of the defense. So, it`s not surprising that George is having the reaction that he does, because in essence, he was -- he was blamed, you

know, for the death. So, look, you know, this kind of interview is just is really surprising, it`s disheartening. I mean, at this point, I`m not sure

why they`re doing this. I do, you know, have a concern, you know, Judge, with all due respect, I think you know, you`re a judge, the evidence spoke,

the jury came back with a verdict, they found her not guilty of intentional murder, and they convicted her for lying to authorities. And as a

practicing attorney, it concerns me when a judge makes comments about what he thinks the verdict should have been.

BANFIELD: Well, I think, you know, Judge Perry, go ahead and respond to that.

PERRY: If you listen carefully to what I say -- no, let me -- let me address this. If you listen carefully to what I said, I said the evidence

would support a verdict if you believe that. I did not give an opinion as to her guilt or innocence. So, you need to stand corrected, because I

didn`t say that.

VARGHESE: I`m not sure with that. I`m not sure how that`s different than saying that you believe she was guilty, and I`m concerned, you know?

PERRY: Judges -- on a motion for judgment of acquittal, judges each and every day rule as to whether or not there`s sufficient evidence, that if

the jury chooses to believe that evidence, it will sustain a verdict, and that`s simply what I did. If you had listened carefully --

VARGHESE: Well, it`s saying there`s -- you said there`s enough evidence --

(CROSSTALK)

PERRY: You`re hearing what you want to hear, Sir, and you`re saying what you want to say.

BANFIELD: So, we have a delay, and I`m just going to jump in, because we can talk about two seconds over one another without hearing the other

person beginning. But I do want to ask this, this case was a landscape- changer. I think all of us can agree, there are few cases, Lizzie Borden, perhaps might be one of them. But few cases that seized the country and

seized the fascination of the country like Casey Anthony did. And maybe some (INAUDIBLE) were different and rules didn`t apply exactly as they

would for every other garden variety case, but this was something that was remarkable. Steve Helling, we do these interviews all the time and we ask

families if they found closure after trials and verdicts are rendered. And this is what Elizabeth Vargas was able to get out of the Anthonys when it

came to that weird notion of closure on the -- on the 10-year anniversary of this saga. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

C. ANTHONY: We still don`t have closure after 10 years, because there`s so many different ideas of what happened to her.

ELIZABETH VARGAS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, A&E: You don`t know what happened to her?

C. ANTHONY: We don`t know, and that`s the thing, we still don`t know.

VARGAS: I can`t imagine how painful this must be.

C. ANTHONY: It`s the worst nightmare that you could ever have.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Steve, George still goes into Casey and Caylee`s room on a regular basis. Walk me through a little of that color from the A&E

documentary.

STEVE HELLING, SENIOR WRITER, PEOPLE MAGAZINE: Well, you know, nothing has changed in Caylee`s room, in Casey`s room. There`s the play -- the place

that is out back, nothing has changed. So, this is a shrine to that -- to what life was like in 2008 when Caylee was still alive and Casey was out

doing her thing. So, yes, George goes in there and George has no closure either. And it`s a bit -- it`s not even bittersweet, it`s just bitter for

him to go and look at this remembrance of what used to be.

BANFIELD: Yes. And apparently, Casey`s room still has all of the photos, all the pictures of Caylee are out in there. George apparently goes into

that room to talk to Caylee, to talk to little Caylee and has said he never wants a relationship with Casey, never. Says he has no interest in having

any relationship with his daughter. It`s such a painful saga. And again, like I said, the landscape of criminal justice and understanding it and

following it changed with the Casey Anthony story. Steve Helling, as always, thanks so much. Judge Belvin Perry, it`s always good to see you.

I spent a lot of time with you, so it`s always nice to revisit.

PERRY: Thank you.

BANFIELD: And Vinoo Varghese, I`m going to ask you to stay on if you will.

Today in Sacramento, accused Golden State Killer James Joseph DeAngelo appeared in court. Not this image. I`m just going to take that down for a

minute. It has nothing to do with what I`m telling you.

[19:45:07] The resemblance of this man to a Hollywood killer, it was hard to mistake this weird similarity with the image of Hannibal Lecter. Look

at that picture. He`s just in an orange prison jumpsuit, he`s walking into a cell that`s held within a courtroom and staring down the judge. You can

tell, this is pretty much the most stark contrast you could conjure up to the first court appearance that he had, where he was wheeled in looking

like a very old man, infirm, and dazed and confused, not like this, standing on his own, staring down that judge.

He listened attentively to everything that was going on, but his eyes did not avert. They stayed solely on the judge. Even though other people in

that courtroom were speaking, that was the gaze, the entire hearing. He never took his eyes off the judge. And we are not taking our eyes off this

story either. We`re going to continue to follow that as more evidence comes in and the case proceeds against him.

I want to take you to Kansas now. The pictures we showed you a moment ago, this little boy, 5 years old, missing for months. His remains have just

been found. And police say it was ultimately his own stepmother that led them to the find.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:51:12] BANFIELD: The life and death of 5-year-old Lucas Hernandez is filled with tragedy. And now, many questions that demand answers. Lucas

went missing from his home in Wichita, Kansas back in February. At the time, his stepmom, Emily Glass, told the officers that she`d him earlier in

the day in his bedroom. According to police, Glass say she went for a shower, then took a three-hour nap, only to find him missing when she woke

up. But Lucas` body was just found a couple days ago under a bridge. And police say it was that stepmother, the girlfriend of Lucas` dad who

actually took a private investigator to the site, where Lucas` decomposing body was found. She`s been arrested, she`s been booked into jail, but it`s

for felony of obstruction of justice, not murder. And the investigation is ongoing. So, Defense Attorney Vinoo Varghese, no murder, and I think a lot

of people would wonder, why not. Why not?

VARGHESE: Because I think, clearly, the police don`t have enough evidence to charge her, yet. I think that`s what they`re waiting for. They`re

charging on obstruction. I`m not sure how it`s obstruction because it seems that --

(CROSSTALK)

BANFIELD: Because she said he`s missing, but she seemed to know where his body was.

VARGHESE: Well, according to her, she found a private investigator. I think the concern here for her is that there`s no privilege with this guy.

So, initially, apparently, the investigator refused to speak to police, but there`s no protections for her.

BANFIELD: Yes, not a lawyer.

VARGHESE: So, whatever is said to -- whatever is said to this guy is going to come out or he`s going to be held in contempt.

BANFIELD: Sad story. And you know what, the investigation is still going on, so there very well could be a murder charge, you never know. Vinoo,

stand by if you will. A real-life Spiderman performing super human feats of accomplishments, saving a 4-year-old boy dangling from a balcony. How

did he do this? Climb four stories with his barehands in seconds flat. And P.S., where were the kid`s parents? Not the people on the right.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: When disaster strikes, Top 10 CNN Heroes Stan Hays and his pitmaster buddies bring comfort in the form of barbecue to those in need.

This week, Stan is extending his service to honor those who serve our country all year long.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STAN HAYS, CEO AND CO-FOUNDER, OPERATION BBQ RELIEF: We`re here with the Gary Sinise Foundation at Invincible Spirit Festival. How are you guys

doing? Do you want a pulled-pork sandwich? We`re cooking for 6500 to 7,000 people. Being here where these men and women have given so much

while protecting and serving our country, it`s pretty special.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is an awesome event. The barbecue is stellar.

HAYS: Barbecue is really about bringing people together. And for us, this is the biggest thank you we can give those men and women that have served.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: To find out more about what`s happening with Operation BBQ Relief or to nominate someone you think should be a CNN Hero, go to

cnnheroes.com right now.

I have "ONE MORE THING" for you tonight. Now, we hear every day about, you know, these common heroes, people performing superhuman feats to save

someone in danger, but scaling a four-story building in less than 30 seconds, that`s amazing. And that`s what happened when a real-life

Spiderman leapt into action to save a 4-year-old boy, who was dangling from that balcony. The crowd below was cheering him on as a nearby neighbor was

helpless, couldn`t reach that child because of a divider wall between their balconies. That child was home alone in that apartment because his father

was out playing Pokemon Go. That father is now facing charges, but that hero is being granted French citizenship as a thank you for his remarkable

actions. We`ll see you right back here tomorrow night, 6:00 Eastern. Thanks so much for watching, everybody. "FORENSIC FILES" begins right now.

END