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INSIDE POLITICS

Giuliani on Cohen; GOP Prepares for War on Supreme Court Pick; McConnell Advising on Math. Aired 12-12:30p ET

Aired July 9, 2018 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:00:15] DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome to INSIDE POLITICS. I'm Dana Bash. John King has the day off.

The president's former fixer, Michael Cohen, has an ominous message for Mr. Trump, the truth is not your friend.

All while the president sets the stage for a drama his way, his second Supreme Court pick in a primetime announcement.

And an update on efforts to save members of a youth soccer team who got stranded deep inside a cave in Thailand.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The four boys rescued today now -- are now hospitalized or are in good health condition. I do pray for the rain goddess to have some mercy for us. Like actually I did ask for three days without rain. I don't -- I don't want to ask for more than that. That would be considered greedy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: We begin with what sources say is a message to the president from his former fixer. Michael Cohen is no longer a flunky and no longer willing to take a bullet for the president. That is in response to what Trump's current lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, told me yesterday, that if Cohen wants to cooperate with the feds, that's fine with him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUDY GIULIANI, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ATTORNEY: I don't know what he has to flip over. What I do know is, there's no evidence of wrongdoing with President Trump. So we're very comfortable. If he believes it's in his best interest to cooperate, God bless him, he should cooperate. I think the man has been horribly treated by the people he's going to cooperate with. But that, you know, sometimes you have no other choice. I do not expect that Michael Cohen's going to lie. I think he's going to tell the truth as best he can given his recollection.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Sources familiar with Cohen's thinking tell our Gloria Borger that by daring Cohen to tell the truth, Giuliani is wading into dangerous territory. The message from Cohen allies this morning to Giuliani is this, the truth is not you or your client's friend. Sources add that Cohen is done playing presidential punching bag and his words to ABC's George Stephanopoulos earlier this month were carefully chosen and intended to send a direct message between the eyes of the president of the United States.

Now, you can see signs of Cohen's reset this morning. Lanny Davis, a new Cohen lawyer, tweeted the following, seriously, Trump/Giuliani next to the word truth equals oxymoron, and then stay tuned.

Now, Giuliani told me shortly after that, the truth will set you free. The president did nothing wrong with Michael Cohen. Everything has been a dead end because there is nothing there.

Here to share their reporting and insights, Margaret Talev with "Bloomberg," Jonathan Martin with "The New York Times," CNN's Gloria Borger, and CNN's Manu Raju.

So, Gloria, now that they have fully communicated in, you know, back and forth, they meaning Michael Cohen and the president through the media, through us, basically --

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Salvos.

BASH: Salvos. Break this down. What do you think this really means? What is Michael Cohen, from your perspective and based on your sources, trying to do here?

BORGER: I think -- what my sources are saying is that what they're trying to do is respond to a message that they think they are getting from Rudy Giuliani and the president of the United States, which is that if he differs with them on his stories, on his recollections, I heard Rudy Giuliani there say, you know, his recollections, whatever he can remember, right, his recollections, that they will continue their attacks on his character. And they will continue to say he is lying.

What we don't know, of course, is what he knows.

BASH: Right.

BORGER: Because when you try and get details about exactly what he knows, you referred to his attorney and his attorney is, of course Guy Petrillo, who was --

BASH: Right, is there anything there there? Is there anything to flip on?

BORGER: Well, it's clear, from my sources, that they seem to believe there's a lot more there than we know. That there were issues that he has responded to publicly, for example, about the Trump Tower meeting, et cetera. And, don't forget, he's testified 15 hours before congressional committees. And I think that, you know, this is just another shot across the bow saying, you know, I'm no longer going to take a bullet for the man I was loyal to for so many years. This is it. And one source said to me, this is his July 4th moment.

BASH: His Independence Day?

BORGER: As in Independence Day.

BASH: OK.

BORGER: Yes.

BASH: So -- but -- and sort of the context of this is that the feds, the New York Southern District, went in, remember, raided Michael Cohen's office and home and everything else, got all kinds of documents, and it is -- it is in that context that the Trump people, Rudy Giuliani on television, are saying, we're not worried. So do they know more than we think that they know, or is there -- is there just a big game of chicken going on here?

[12:05:22] MARGARET TALEV, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, "BLOOMBERG": We don't know what we don't know, but it seems to me that the public relations campaign has consistently been, we have nothing to hide, there's nothing going on here, there's no collusion. And so, of course, that's going to be the public message. Regardless of what is in the papers that were seized from Michael Cohen's office, regardless of what they show or don't show about the president, the public posturing has got to remain consistent and has got to be exactly what it is, which is, we didn't do anything wrong.

BASH: And you don't have to read very far between the lines to see this sort of volleyball of messages, right, back and forth between these two camps. These two camps, who were one camp not that long ago.

JONATHAN MARTIN, NATIONAL POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Yes, it's extraordinary. I mean I -- there was a moment on Air Force One, what, four months ago, where the president was asked about Stormy Daniels --

BASH: Yes.

MARTIN: And he said, talk to my lawyer, Michael Cohen.

BASH: Yes.

MARTIN: Not, talk to one of my lawyers. Not, talk to an attorney I've hired. Talk to my lawyer. And now Cohen has hired a Clinton -- a Clinton (INAUDIBLE), Lanny Davis, and is sort of going to war with Donald Trump. It just -- it just suggests that there's lots more out there to come here.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And in that -- I mean in that same Air Force One moment, I mean, that was where the president was dishonest with the American public, where he said that he was not -- he was not aware of a payment that occurred with Stormy Daniels, and we'll see what came out of this raid and whether or not there was anything that showed that the president was aware.

BASH: Right. RAJU: And, you know, since then, Rudy Giuliani has essentially acknowledged the president was aware of these payments. So I think that's going to play out.

And also, but I think for Cohen, too, he's going to have to realize if he were to cooperate, maybe he won't get that pardon that he could potentially get down the line. As we know, the Trump -- President Trump has been doing that for his allies and his loyalists. That's going to be something to think about, about being loyal or not.

BORGER: Well, we don't -- you know, there are so many questions we just don't know the answers to about what Michael Cohen really knows and what he doesn't know about Stormy Daniels, for example. The president's story has changed. Rudy Giuliani changed the story for the president, said that he wrote a personal check. So, these things -- this onion has to be peeled here an awful lot. We just don't know whether the prosecutors are interested in Michael Cohen at this point. What they want to get from him, if anything.

BASH: But what we do know, I mean we can read into -- we can read the tea leaves by just the public statements over the past couple weeks, but also who he's hired.

MARTIN: Yes.

BASH: I mean you mention Lanny Davis.

MARTIN: Yes.

BASH: For people out there who might not know, Lanny Davis is a Democrat, a proud Democrat. He is somebody who did -- was out there during, you know, the Lewinsky situation in the Clinton world. And, you know, he doesn't play bean bag. He knows how to do this. And he's not somebody who just kind of sits quietly on his hands.

He got out there this morning, in a very aggressive way on Twitter. You're told from your sources that this is an aggressive strategy. What does -- what does that say to you, Gloria?

BORGER: Well, it says that he's just not -- he's not going to take it anymore. He feels like he's been a punching bag, not only from the president's legal team, Rudy Giuliani, but what about Michael Avenatti? We have forgotten that? I think he feels the need that -- to say to people that, you know, my strategy -- my strategy is going to shift now and you don't know what I know.

MARTIN: Yes. Yes. It tells me that he has come to the conclusion that he has a better chance to lessen his exposure by cutting a deal with the feds and turning on Trump than by rolling the dice and thinking he can get a pardon from Trump down the road. That that's basically his bat here.

BASH: Right. But the big question is, what does he have on Trump? You know, Trump and Giuliani are saying, as far as we know, nothing.

TALEV: Right. BASH: So you have to have -- you have to give something to get a deal.

And the question is whether even the prosecutors want to give Michael Cohen a deal.

BORGER: We don't know that. We don't know. But what we do know is on the Sundays show interviews, including yours and others, that he has been very careful to distinguish himself from the president, saying, you know, I respect the FBI. Who doesn't respect the FBI? The president of the United States doesn't respect the FBI. Maybe he knows some more stuff about the Trump Tower meeting that we don't know about.

MARTIN: Right.

BORGER: He raised the point specifically that he believes the intelligence communities on Russian meddling. Who doesn't believe the intelligence communities on Russian meddling?

MARTIN: Yes.

BORGER: His former boss.

MARTIN: Yes.

BORGER: So there is a distance that is becoming a chasm --

BASH: Not to mention the fact that he scrubbed Trump's name from social media and --

MARTIN: Yes.

TALEV: But, again, we don't know entirely what it means. You can read the clues a few different ways. It may mean that he's trying to entice prosecutors to (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: Yes, there you go. We just put this up. The before and after of, Donald Trump doesn't exist right now.

MARTIN: Oh, and the picture, too, look at that.

TALEV: Yes. Yes.

BORGER: Right. Right.

MARTIN: Replaced with old glory.

BORGER: Right. So he's not taking the bullet anymore.

[12:10:01] RAJU: And, look, it just it just represents that this investigation is probably not ending any time soon.

MARTIN: Yes.

RAJU: It's going to continue to linger over this president. It's going to continue to frustrate this president. There's the Southern District of New York investigation going on. There's Robert Mueller's investigation going on.

TALEV: Yes.

RAJU: Neither of which seem to be ending, despite the hope by the president's attorneys that it would wrap up soon. It was Giuliani I think just, what, maybe six, seven, eight weeks ago that said it would end in two weeks. Clearly that has not happened and it's probably not going to happen anytime soon. So that's, you know, that's something that the president's going to have to continue to contend with in the months ahead.

BASH: Yes, it's true. And, you know, look, I planned to have this conversation about whether the interview would or wouldn't happen, but it's really remarkable that Michael Cohen, who had said he would take a bullet for Donald Trump, who would do anything, allegedly paid off a porn star without Trump knowing to protect him is now going as far as he is going to taunt the president.

MARTIN: Yes.

BASH: And it's a really a big change and a big moment in this whole drama.

BORGER: He would argue, of course, that he's responding to the taunts from Rudy Giuliani on behalf of the president.

MARTIN: Yes.

BORGER: I mean he would say, why are they doing --

BASH: Yes.

BORGER: Why are they doing this to me?

BASH: But the -- yes.

BORGER: The man who would have taken a bullet for the president of the United States? What have I ever done?

BASH: But the -- no, exactly, but the taunting is happening and --

MARTIN: (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: And --

MARTIN: He knows what the feds sees when they raided his office.

BASH: That's right.

MARTIN: Cohen does. So he's aware of what his exposure could be here, right? So he's voting (ph) both with his feet because he's well aware of what they have on him.

BASH: Right.

TALEV: And I think he also knows -- he -- there's attorney-client privilege that covers -- that may cover parts of his relationship with his client, but then there's what he knows about everybody else who's also under the microscope.

BASH: Exactly.

TALEV: And if he is asked to turn on them, then he risks the president never pardoning him, depending on how close he gets to the action, and that might be what all this is about (INAUDIBLE).

BASH: That's a nice place to dangle -- to dangle a tease.

We're going to take a quick break. Up next, it is decision day for the president. We're just hours away from his primetime announcement on who he will nominate for the Supreme Court. Has he made his choice? Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[12:16:15] BASH: President Trump is facing the highest of stakes today as he settles on his pick to fill the Supreme Court vacancy left by retiring Justice Anthony Kennedy, often a swing vote on key decisions. Now, he is always a showman, and the president is continuing to ratchet that up. The stakes are really, really high, and he doesn't seem to care about that old adage about lowering expectations in politics.

Here's what he said. I have long heard that the most important decision a U.S. president can make is a selection of a Supreme Court justice. We'll be announcing tonight at 9:00 p.m.

One person close to the process tells CNN that if the president has made up his mind, that would be news to them.

President Trump has had a chaotic weekend making calls and inquiries to friends, to associates, about --

MARTIN: Caddies.

BASH: Caddies, about the final four contenders, Amy Coney Barrett, Thomas Hardiman, Brett Kavanaugh, and Raymond Kethledge. Now, none of those possibilities are acceptable to most Senate Democrats, who are preparing an assault against whomever it is based on concerns the nominee would undermine both Roe verses Wade and the Affordable Care Act. The Republican Party, which holds a razor thin majority in the Senate, isn't taking their math for granted. One Republican operative tells CNN, quote, we are prepared for an all-out war.

CNN's Jeff Zeleny joins me live at the White House, where a Supreme Court war room is no doubt humming with activity.

Jeff, what are you hearing?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Dana, there's no question it is. And the war room, I am told, is preparing for at least three options. The president perhaps has not made up his mind, perhaps. But I'm also told by people close to this process, he's very much, you know, open to the possibility of taking every last phone call, having every last meeting with someone. But the reality here is that there would have to be a persuasive argument for this not to be one of the final contenders there.

You see them on the screen. And they're listed in alphabetical order. I do not, just based on talking to a variety of people here, believe that that is the order in which he is thinking of them. There is still a lot of reason to believe that Brett Kavanaugh, for all of the sort of concern in recent days about his long paper trail, his association with the Bush administration, he is still very much, we're told, in the running here.

I'm also told the president still likes the idea of picking a woman. He likes the idea of what that would do for the narrative of the midterm election campaign. It's one of the reasons that Amy Coney Barrett is still in the mix. And Thomas Hardiman I'm told also still in the mix. He, of course, was the runner-up last year when he was not picked.

But that's what the president is following. He's following the model of Neil Gorsuch. And he does want this, I'm told, to be a surprise until, you know, the lights come up in the East Room and he's able to announce that person on stage. It's one of the reasons he's been, you know, saying that he's close to making a decision. He's not sure.

But, Dana, one thing is clear, this town is already starting with the apparatus of a campaign. Television ads. Millions of dollars on both sides already being spent. This is going to be a central part of the midterm election campaign.

I'm also told, Dana, one quick thing. The president does not mind a tough fight for the Supreme Court. That is one thing to keep in mind. Mitch McConnell, of course, wants to confirm someone very quickly. The president, I'm told, is fine with the long fight because that will energize conservatives, at least in his view.

Dana.

BASH: Yes, he's -- I'm sure he's not wrong about that.

Thank you very much for that reporting, Jeff.

And Mary Katharine Ham from "The Federalist" is now here with the panel.

I just want to explain, Jeff just laid out some -- the contenders. I want to talk about what you live every day, Manu, which is the math. And what we're talking about in terms of how close this vote could be.

Check this out. This is the balance of power in the U.S. Senate. So, 51-49. We have a photo of John McCain up there because the expectation is that he will not be returning. He's suffering from cancer back in Arizona. So that means that the stakes are even higher. The margin even slimmer.

[12:20:15] Now, let's go to the narrow number of potential swing votes that we're talking about here. I think we have another graphic to show. Do we? OK. OK. Hold on. We'll talk about it. Oh, there it is. OK. All right. Thank you, guys.

So there are some Republicans in the red who we're not sure if they'll vote yes or no. Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski and a few others. And on the Democratic side, there were three Democrats who voted for Neil Gorsuch and then there are a few others who are facing very tough re- election battles.

So the point here is that when you're talking about this all-out war, that's a very, very small universe of senators. Half -- you know, half a dozen to try to convince to go either way and every single vote really does matter.

RAJU: Yes, yes, no question about it. And really the key people we're going to have to watch here are Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski. The -- you -- talking today with Democratic sources on The Hill, the view in large part is that if those two were to defect, it will be -- and oppose the president's choice, it will be hard to see those red state Democrats joining the president. It's more they would essentially give those red state Democrats cover to vote no.

So, in large part, the big sales job is going to be on both sides to convince Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins to stick with the president. And if they stick with the president on this, then maybe that will convince some of those red state guys to jump ship. But those red state guys are in tough races. It's just not an easy vote for them because they could demoralize their base and their own supporters by voting for the president's nominee and also outrage conservatives in their states. And even someone like a Joe Manchin, in a state where Trump won big, he does have to worry about the Democratic base in the November midterms.

BASH: Sure.

RAJU: So this is going to be a months-long process to see how these will ultimately play out. But Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins will be the two to watch.

BASH: And that's such a good point, you're right, that they -- that they'll give the Democrats cover. But when you're talking about these red state Democrats, it's not like, if you're a liberal in West Virginia, you're going to then go vote for the Republican. You just won't go vote.

RAJU: True.

BASH: Which is -- which is -- that is the worst thing that would happen to somebody like Joe Manchin.

What are you hearing from your sources and from kind of the conservative base about which way the president should go? Because there are a lot of different factors. You get somebody with a long record so that the conservatives are happy because they know who they're getting.

MARY KATHARINE HAM, SENIOR WRITER, "THE FEDERALIST": Right.

BASH: Do you get somebody without one so that it's a little bit easier to convince those on the fence that a person could go either way on key issues.

HAM: Yes, I think there's, number one, there's a -- there was a sense with Gorsuch that he had settled on Gorsuch and that that was a done deal a little bit sooner. And behind the scenes right now there's not a sense that he's settled on someone.

And, by the way, it's just a preference of mine. If we're going to have the Trump presidency, I say we go all out with the boardroom presentation of this for --

MARTIN: The rose.

BASH: We want roses.

MARTIN: I want the rose.

HAM: Yes, but --

BASH: You're mixing up your reality shows, J-Mart.

MARTIN: The bachelorette hybrid, yes.

HAM: (INAUDIBLE) your rose and go home.

MARTIN: You're fired.

HAM: But --

MARTIN: What was the show called?

BASH: "The Apprentice."

MARTIN: "The Apprentice."

HAM: But there's a sense -- there's a sense among conservatives that, look, there are certainly concerns about Kavanaugh and Hardiman for sure, who is not among the Federalist Society recommendations. Barrett, I think, would be a crowd pleaser with the base, despite the fact that she hasn't been on the bench as long as some of the others. She also has the advantage of, with Murkowski and Collins, making it a little bit tougher, even though she is an avowed pro-life Catholic, making it tougher for them to vote against a woman.

BASH: Yes.

HAM: So it's an interesting thing there. And the dynamic seems to be with Trump always what makes him tick at any given moment, who's he talking to and what does it feel like he's being dared not to do?

BASH: Yes.

HAM: I think is the question. BASH: That's really the key.

I -- talking about red state Democrats. There is a red state Democrat who was not there in the Senate when Gorsuch was confirmed. And that, of course, is Doug Jones.

I talked to him yesterday. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. DOUG JONES (D), ALABAMA: I don't think my role is a rubber stamp for the president, but it's also not an automatic knee-jerk no either. My job is to exercise that independent voice.

And I don't think anyone should expect me to simply vote yes for this nominee just simply because my state may be more conservative than others.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTIN: I think -- I think Doug Jones is somebody who voted against Gina Haspel to be the first female at the CIA. And I think it's unlikely that he would support whoever the president puts up.

BASH: Even though he comes from a state where Trump won by 68 percent?

MARTIN: He recognizes his challenge in 2020 very acutely. And I think he's making the most of his time here in the nation's capital.

[12:25:01] TALEV: But this is all -- there's so much -- so much -- so much posturing here by the president, as well as all of these various potential swing voters on either side of the aisle. And for all that we talk about the importance of Murkowski and Collins. When we see this play out in the past, whether it's on health care or whatever, both of these women always, in the end, almost always in the end, go along with the vote that they need to go along with. They extract some sort of concession that says, hey, we got the president to agree to do whatever in Maine or do whatever for women and then the vote happens.

RAJU: Like Collins (INAUDIBLE).

MARTIN: But McConnell has told Trump, though, that if he does go with Barrett, it could create challenges with Collins and Murkowski.

BASH: I was going to say, the Republican leader wants to go the safest route possible.

MARTIN: Of course.

BASH: Of course he does.

MARTIN: Yes, a Hardiman or Kethledge, yes.

BASH: I think that -- guys, we don't have time to run the soundbite, but I just want everybody to think about this as we go to break. Justice Breyer was asked about him, what he thinks, who should be nominated. He said to ask me about the process of nomination and confirmation is like asking the recipe of chicken a la king from the point of view of the chicken.

MARTIN: That's a pretty good line.

BASH: Marinate on that for a little while.

A dangerous mission to rescue a youth soccer team trapped in a cave is far from over. Up next, we'll have the latest on the operation and talk to an expert diver about the mind-bending challenges ahead.

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