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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Woman found dead bound with duct tape; Teenage lovers planned to kill girl`s parents; Twisted Plot Exposed?; Urgent Search Tonight; Hunt For Killer; One More Thing. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired July 23, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[18:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, is she awake?

ASGEIRR ULFR, MURDER SUSPECT: I don`t know. I can`t tell if she`s breathing or not. She`s tied up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-six year-old Asgeirr Ulfr (inaudible) he pulled up to this home when he was met by a masked female intruder with a gun.

Ulfr goes on to claim he found his friend, 20-year-old, Christiana Scarr, tied up on the floor with duct tape covering her mouth and not breathing.

But investigators say his story started to crack.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He made that story up, fabricated it in order to cover up the crime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eighteen year-old Zachary Sliger and a 15-year-old girl plotted to kill her family after her mom refused to allow her to

become emancipated earlier in the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He fires the gun one time at dad. Turns the gun on mom. That was their plan, was to kill those three and move along with life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tammy Steffen called 911 last Saturday and told the dispatcher someone just tried to kidnap her daughter. But today detectives

say the entire report was a fake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have learned that what I believe is a sick person fabricated this whole event.

(END VIDEO CLIPS)

RITA COSBY, GUEST HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: And good evening everybody. I am Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is "Crime & Justice." Well,

it happens to the best of us. You like someone and they don`t like you back. But while most people find a way to move on, police say that 26-year-

old Asgeirr Ulfr decided to try again. Only his alleged attempt to woo back his crush ended with Christina Scarr choked to death.

The young hostess at the restaurant was left topless and bound with duct tape in her bedroom, a scene so brutal, we can`t even show you the crime

scene photos. And Ulfr told police that`s how he found his friend when he dropped by the house to give her something. And that`s where Ulfr said he

just happened to encounter a violent home intruder.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ULFR: I don`t know if my friend`s breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, where were you shot at?

ULFR: My foot. I was shot at my foot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You said you`re not bleeding?

ULFR: I`m bleeding. I`m bleeding.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, I need you to take a deep breath, okay. I do have help on the way to you. Okay, do you know if the assailant is still

there?

ULFR: No, I don`t. I think I saw them leaving through the backyard.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old is your friend?

ULFR: She`s 20. She`s 20.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, is she awake?

ULFR: I don`t -- I don`t know. I can`t tell if she`s breathing or not. She`s tied up, she`s tied up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s tied up? Okay, where is she shot?

ULFR: She wasn`t -- I don`t think she was shot. I don`t see any blood around her at all. She looks like she was -- she looks like she was beaten

up.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you know when this happened?

ULFR: No, I just got here. I just got here. I was dropping off a key. It doesn`t really look like she`s breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You don`t see her chest rising?

ULFR: No, no. Oh, my god.

Right now, she`s on the floor, she`s duct taped to the bed and her face is duct taped. Her face is duct taped.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you go ahead and take the duct tape off if she`s not breathing? We need to go ahead and start CPR.

ULFR: I don`t, I don`t, I don`t have anything to take the duct tape off of. I don`t have anything to take the duct tape off with. I don`t see a

knife or anything. Okay, I think someone`s here. I think someone`s here. Yes, come in, please. Please, come in. I`m in the back room. I`m in the

room. Okay, I`m coming.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSBY: Well, it sounds pretty dramatic, but the problem with Ulfr`s story is that there didn`t seem to be any evidence that someone broke into the

home. There was evidence, however, of Ulfr buying duct tape and cable ties at the local Wal-Mart. And apparently, Ulfr may have even confessed to

killing Christina, allegedly telling an attorney that he hid in the closet all night long as she and her new boyfriend slept, waiting for that

boyfriend to leave in the morning before disguising himself and then attacking her.

Now, he was charged with first-degree murder. But Ulfr has reportedly said he only meant to scare his crush before he showed up as her savior. So, did

his plan just simply go sideways and should he be facing the death penalty for this crime? Joining me to talk about all of this now is Ray Caputo. He

is an anchor and reporter with the 96.5 WDBO Radio. Also James Gagliano -- he is a CNN law enforcement analyst. You see him here all the time. Also,

retired FBI supervisory special agent and trial attorney Randy Kessler.

Ray, let me start with you because we just heard that unbelievable 911 call, sobbing, crying. That sort of where it all started out, right?

[18:05:02] RAY CAPUTO, ANCHOR/REPROTER, 96.5 WDBO RADIO: : Yeah. It was a 911 call that was made around 10:00 in the morning. And you know what Rita,

I don`t know about you, but that call just stinks to high heaven. You know, he`s stuttering but the one thing that gets me about that call is when the

911 operator asks him or Ulfr, if he can do anything to get that duct tape off and he says no.

This is his good friend and he just stumbled upon her, you know. I just can`t imagine, you know, somebody that really cares about somebody not

being able to get duct tape off her mouth. But, you know, I feel like listening to that 911 call, that he was more upset that he had shot himself

purposely in the foot and he was bleeding than his friend who subsequently evidence points to that he strangled to dead was lying there dead on the

floor.

COSBY: Yes, it`s unbelievable when you hear that. Oh, my poor foot. In fact, I want to show a picture of the foot because if you look at the

picture -- we just got some of these photos that are going to be admitted in this case.

And this photo, look at this. This is his injury, and he`s worried about the injury to his foot. It looks like a little like a mosquito bite

basically and you can see where the bullet supposedly went through his foot. And when you see that, Ray, you`re right. He`s a horrible actor when

you hear that call.

CAPUTO: Yeah, Rita. You know, when you look at the totality of this guy`s plan, he`s not the world`s smartest criminal either and I don`t mean to

make light of this. You know, him thinking that he was going to tie this young lady up and then come and save her, you know, and then leaving such a

long electronic trail. Everything from the transactions at Wal-Mart, there is video surveillance all over that neighborhood that caught him walking

out.

And you know what, one of the most twisted things is that he apparently was on crutches, okay. But surveillance doesn`t show him walking around on

crutches so, I guess he`s pulling, you know, what I call a Keyser Soze, if you ever saw that movie, "The Usual Suspects." He has a history of lying

about things to make people feel sorry for him.

You know, this guy is not well. I don`t know if he`s ever been diagnosed with a mental illness, but he is certainly a jealous, love-sick sicko. Not

the smartest criminal either.

COSBY: Yes, definitely. We heard also from the boyfriend of this poor woman who is now deceased, Christina -- beautiful woman -- that apparently

there were text messages, there were threats. So, it sounds like there were a lot of allegations of stalking. Also co-workers said the same thing.

Ray, I also want to show because what I think is so unbelievable, you talk about the duct tape that was on her, she was actually tied to the bed. And

we have a shot of the bed, but I want you to describe how this beautiful woman was found and now is of course no longer with us. But her ex-co-

worker who claimed to be the boyfriend, and again, there`s no proof of that. We`re not even sure if there was any relationship whatsoever, but how

apparently, how he left her.

CAPUTO: Oh, it was horrible. Like her feet were zip-tied with those zip ties he bought at Wal-Mart and there was like duct tape sloppily placed all

over her body. Her hands were duct-taped. And then he tried to -- what he did allegedly was that he strangled her and knocked her out and then put

duct tape like all over her face, just not over her mouth, but basically duct-taped her entire face.

And then when he was having trouble with that, he cut some of her hair and then, you know, continued to duct-tape her. So, you know, it wasn`t this

clean piece of duct tape over her mouth. It was just all over her head, covering her eyes and her mouth. You know, she had nothing but her

underwear on.

She had just gotten up, you know, when this guy pops out of the closet and comes to get her. I mean, you know, this poor girl, 20 years-old, and the

way they found her was just absolutely horrible.

COSBY: It is unbelievable. I want to play a little bit more of this 911 call, the sort of drama, especially now given the fact of what he is

charged with. Here`s a little bit more of that dramatic acting job.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, do you know who it was that shot you?

ULFR: No. They were wearing a mask.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, did they rob you?

ULFR: No, I just came in. I was coming to drop off a key to my friend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell if it was a male or a female?

ULFR: I think it was a female.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Could you tell if she was white, black or Hispanic?

ULFR: I couldn`t tell.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you remember what clothing she had on, what color shirt, what color of pants?

ULFR: She had a black hoodie on, blue jeans. I think there was someone else. I don`t know if my friend`s breathing.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, where were you shot at?

ULFR: In my foot. I was shot in my foot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they still there?

ULFR: I don`t think so. I think I saw them running out the back. I`m starting to bleed a lot.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSBY: He is starting to bleed a lot meanwhile Christina is dead and duct taped to the bed. I want to go to James Gagliano who is here with us.

James, you`ve had such great experience with the FBI through the years and I just think about all this -- talk about the physical evidence.

[18:10:03] Because as Ray was just talking about, they have the duct tape, they have him buying these things on the surveillance footage. In fact, let

me put up a couple of things just to show what was found. I mean, there are always these different items that are tied to it all. And as you piece it

together, you kind of go, all right, these things he bought.

By the way, he did have time to get a Reese`s. He is in the middle of all of this. He did have time to take a glass of water too after she`s

apparently in the bedroom dying, or dead at that time. Forensics play a key role here, don`t you think, James?

JAMES GAGLIAN, CNN LAW ENFORCEMNET ANALYST: Absolutely. And to Rray`s point, there are no perfect crimes. I mean, in the 21st century, there are

no perfect crimes now. Look at what we have. You have the human intelligence by the interviews that the detectives must have done. And I

could detect that this gentleman probably had a little bit of a speech affect.

But when you`re dealing with somebody in a situation like this, you`re studying body language, tone, the words that they use and you`re getting an

opportunity to interview somebody before they get a lawyer and try to get an assessment to see if you can get an confession. The other is signal

intelligence. The electrical footprint that he left at the Wal-Mart, he purchased the duct tape there. So, that was easy to track.

Again, no perfect crimes, but this guy wasn`t exactly a rocket scientist in this. And the last piece is the forensic evidence that they`re going to

harvest at the scene, at the site. Being shot in the foot, that is a classic tactic that cowards use in war to try to get out of war by shooting

themselves in the foot. It looked like a flesh wound or whatever. So again, there were a lot of things that probably tipped police off that this wasn`t

exactly the way it appeared on the surface.

COSBY: The other thing too, James, the door. Apparently, he says the door was cracked open, but there`s no sign of a break-in also. And then in

addition to that, when you hear him, he just sounds like oh, he`s so dramatic, this whole thing. And we know now, that also there was all this

evidence sort of sizing up, beefing up to it. And this comes on the heels as we also found out, he was a scorned lover it sounds like, and he`s

watching or hearing the girl with somebody else. Is that a typical motive too?

GALIANO: Crimes of passion are seldom well thought out. So there`s often a trail of things, a litany of things that investigators can parse here

because they`re usually done when? In the heat of passion. So this is a perfect example that clearly wasn`t a well-thought out crime.

If there`s any closure for the family, it just it looks like the police have done some good work here and they found the guy that did it, and he`s

obviously going to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

COSBY: Thank goodness. Let`s go to Ray Caputo. Ray, as we`re hearing all of this too, his sister broke the case, explain that because that`s

unusual.

CAPUTO: Yeah, well after Ulfr went to the hospital, he apparently was riding home and he got on the phone with his attorney and he spilled the

beans. He admitted everything and his sister was there. Now, normally something like that would be protected by attorney/client privilege but

because his sister was there and she was a third-party, apparently that stuff is admissible.

And they are still trying -- and his attorney, his new attorney now is still trying to fight that and get it thrown out. But he basically admitted

everything, you know. And it matches up with the fake timeline. You know, his new timeline is, you know, all that stuff he admitted, it all adds up

basically, Rita.

COSBY: It sure does. And I want to show also one of the other exhibits is this clump of hair from Christina, which is just so heartbreaking. And the

sister apparently overheard that he got rid of some of her hair because it got in the way of his plan. Again, his plan, so he says, was to save her

from this female intruder, through all of this.

It`s just so heartbreaking and so unbelievable. We`re not even clear if they even had a relationship. Randy Kessler, let`s hear your best defense

of this one because you`ve got the sister, the guy`s own sister, who overheard him spilling the beans to the attorney.

RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, the attorney should have asked him does he have anybody else in the car. So that`s a problem

for his attorney. He may be suing his attorney. But the truth of the matter is, you know what, he did have an excuse, an explanation. He didn`t think

about concocting and saying I`m going to blame this rescue mentality. I mean, that was stream of consciousness. He just said it. So, he did have --

if that`s what he did, if that`s true what the sister says, then yes, he planned on doing something other than killing her. That might get rid --

COSBY: Randy, wait a second Randy. You`re saying stream of consciousness. He went to the Wal-Mart, he got these things, he cut her hair when it got

in the way. He had enough time to duct-tape her. This is not some spontaneous thing where, come on.

KESLER: But the excuse, the explanation is spontaneous. He didn`t say, yeah, I did it, I was mad and I went in there and killed her. He was

talking to the lawyer thinking it was private and said, here`s what I was trying to do, I was trying to scare her, okay. There are no eyewitnesses.

It`s a tough case for the prosecution, but it`s going to be a tough fight.

COSBY: Yes, it sure will be. Thanks everybody.

And a Nebraska mother is hospitalized after suffering a gunshot wound to the hand and face, but her 15-year-old daughter, she and her 18-year-old

boyfriend, Zachary Sliger, are sitting in jail cells for what police say was a conspiracy to kill her entire family.

[18:15:08] You`ve got to hear about this wild case. That`s coming up next.

[18:20:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Plenty of parents disapprove of their parents` relationship, especially when they are just

teenagers who are trying to tie the knot. But one teen couple in Oklahoma reportedly wanted to be together so badly they were willing to kill for it.

CNN affiliate KFOR has been tracking their deadly love story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- very many plots to kill off a family especially being a juvenile with an adult boyfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that`s what happened in Chandler Thursday night. Eighteen year-old Zachary Sliger and a 15-year-old girl plotted to kill her

family after her mom refused her to allow her to become emancipated earlier in the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They come up with a plan to do a three-way homicide by killing mom, dad, and an older sister that lives on the property, not in

the house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Around midnight, Sliger left his (inaudible) home with a handgun and met the 15-year-old at her home while the family was

asleep. She was also armed with a gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zach goes in the bedroom. He fires the gun one time at dad and misses. Shoots a hole in his pillow. Immediately turns the gun on

mom. Shoots her one time in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 15-year-old told Sliger to go home so she could come up with a story. We don`t know what that story is but both were

arrested. Sliger picked up at his (inaudible) home, the gun recovered at the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was their plan, was to kill those three and move along with life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had already packed their bags. Now, they`re headed to jail. The district attorney plans to file criminal charges

against Sliger for three counts of conspiracy to commit murder in the first-degree, one count of shooting with intent to kill and one count of

assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. The 15-year-old will also be charged but as a youthful offender.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We prepare for everything and we get surprised every day. I`ve done this for 38 years and I`ve never heard of stuff like this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Incredible story. And joining me now to talk about all of this is Scott Mitchell, host of "Mitchell Talks" in Oklahoma City. Also James

Gagliano, and he is with CNN of course. He is a law enforcement analyst and retired FBI supervisory special agent, and trial attorney Randy Kessler.

This is such a wild story, Scott. Take us, first of all because the dad calls 911, and let me play a little bit of the dad because it`s so

interesting. What a weird thing. He gets awoken to the sound of gun shots in his own home. And this is a little bit of that 911 call.

(BEGINV AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, this is Lincoln County 911.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yeah, I`m at (BLEEP), Highway 18B in Sparks here in Chandler. And we don`t know what happened but we think my wife may have

just gotten shot in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think your wife got shot in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bleeding horribly. We were just woken up by an explosion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Okay, just one second.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

COSBY: What a wild thing, wakes up to an explosion. Scott Mitchell, at first when you hear that call, the dad doesn`t seem to know who is behind

it, right, when he makes the original call?

SCOTT MITCHELL, HOST, MITCHELL TALKS (via telephone): Yeah, he`s woken from a deep sleep apparently about midnight. Actually, he sounds pretty

cool and collected for what`s just happened. So here`s this right out of their sleep, this explosion, which turns out to be a gunshot, couple of gun

shots. And then the story begins from there. It`s frightening. A little bit a lot like maybe that `90s movie, what was "Natural Born Killers," it`s a

little twist on that. It`s bizarre.

COSBY: Yes, it sure does because it turns out that the girlfriend says I`ll stay back as it turns out the guy does it, pulls the gun, the

girlfriend stays back. But walk us through this concoction because, what, they were only dating about five months?

MITCHELL: They hadn`t been together for very long, but, I mean, they are kids. She`s 15-years-old so, we`ve got hormones, immaturity, and rank

stupidity. So apparently, Rita, what had happened earlier in the evening is this minor and her mother, who was shot later that evening, had an argument

or a discussion where the young lady wanted to be emancipated so she could run off with this guy. And basically she was sent to her room where the

answer was no. And then the wheels began to turn on the plot for murder.

COSBY: How did they finally get busted because there are so many questions to this case, Scott Mitchell? How do they piece it together?

[18:25:07] MITCHELL: Well, we`re not dealing with the sharpest knives in the drawer here. So, he goes home and she stays there. So, whatever

happened at that particular point with the sheriff`s department, they just copped right away. She told everything. Of course that told where he was

going, and when he got home, the cops in that part or in that jurisdiction were waiting on him and they just gave it all up.

They said everything that they had plotted and planned. There wasn`t any -- they didn`t have to work very hard so they got all the details from the two

kids.

COSBY: Unbelievable story. James Gagliano, I want to go to you because you piece all this together, apparently this sort of "Natural Born Killers" is

such a great analogy that Scott was just saying. And you hear them planning this from what they pieced together now, the plan was to get the mom and

the dad and then the sister who lives on the property, taking both guns. Now, how do you piece this together? There`s a lot of forensics here? I

think forensics play a big role in this case.

GAGLIANO: Sure. You`re dealing with two minors. Now, essentially some state --

COSBY: Well, one minor.

GALIANO: Right. He`s 18 years old, will be treated as an adult. They were allowed to have a relationship in Oklahoma because of the Romeo and

Juliette clause which allows people under the age of 18 to --

COSBY: Have a relationship.

GALIANO: Yes. So you`ve got essentially two kids here and as they think through this thing and they begin to plan it, it just became -- just a

number of errors. And what ended up happening is, I`m certain is that the 15-year-old basically got cold feet. And the 18-year-old, who had an

opportunity with two people supine in bed, you know, who were unsuspecting. You heard the 911 call.

The father did not even know what happened. He just described it as an explosion because it happened in the middle of the night. And didn`t go

through with it and make it happen. So, two young kids, a big part of this is going to be the statements that were given afterwards because in many

states, a minor has to be represented by either another adult or a parent or a guardian to be interviewed by police. So that`s going to be

interesting by what the statements were, what`s going to be admissible in this.

COSBY: You know, one of the other things is this whole emancipation thing. Randy Kessler, explain this, because in Oklahoma, you have to be, what,

under the age of 18 to file emancipation. How does that work?

KESSLER: So if you want to be emancipated you can either -- there are a couple of things. You can graduate high school and move on and then you`re

emancipated. You can join the armed forces. And some states, you can get married. If none of those happened, you can file a document saying, I want

to be emancipated. I don`t want to be under my parents guidance anymore. I`m going to make my own decisions. That would have been a much easier way

to do this than what they tried.

COSBY: You bet. Now let me ask you in the case Randy, this is so interesting too because in the case here, had she been emancipated, say the

mom had granted the wish, could she have been tried as an adult? Would she have been considered an adult? I guess in other words, be careful what you

wish for?

KESSLER: Be careful what you wish for but the ultimate decision comes down to the prosecutor. Do they think she had the mental capacity of an adult or

do they want to treat her as a juvenile and give her a chance to getting back into society. And I think it sounds like the right decision for a 15-

year-old.

COSBY: Well, James, you know, there`s a lot of planning here when I look at this too because apparently they were bothg taking each others` fathers`

guns, okay. But it`s her dad`s gun that she apparently took that was used in this killing. That hurts her big time too because it`s not like, you

know, Randy`s like, oh, well, you know, this 15-year-old, feel sorry for them. Sounds like she was pretty involved in this plan to scheme. Maybe she

didn`t pull the trigger, but boy, there`s a lot of evidence against her.

GAGLIANO: And that premeditation is critical in this. There was absolutely an elaborate plan that was executed and not just completed. The thing

that`s going to be the mitigating factor here is their ages, to the attorney`s point. You know, the ages are going to be a critical part of the

assessment as far as their premeditation. Did the 15-year-old really understand the scope of what she was doing?

COSBY: Randy Kessler, are we supposed to feel sorry for her because as James was saying because she`s 15 years old?

KESSLER: I`m not saying feel sorry for her, but the question is do you treat a 15-year-old the same as you treat a 30-year-old or a 40-year-old?

You know, she`s going to be punished. She`s going to living with this. She`s going to have some --

COSBY: She planned to kill both of her parents and she planned to kill the sister, her own family. This is not Mother Teresa, Randy.

KESSLER: That`s the allegation and you`re right, in the public image and on court T.V., sure. But in the court of law, she gets treated like a

juvenile because that`s how we treat juveniles. We give them a chance getting back --

COSBY: Right. But don`t you think she`s culpable, Randy? Explain because it`s not, look, it was her father`s gun that she got. It`s not like he

broke into the place and planned the scheme on his own.

KESSLER: Do I think she`s culpable? She looks culpable from a parent`s sake, but that`s not beyond the reasonable doubt. That`s not the proof --

the standard of proof we need. I think she`s going to be treated as a juvenile and she will get a chance at getting back into society.

COSBY: All right. Well, we shall see what happens guys. Thank you.

Meantime, police say a bikini model and mother was looking to get revenge on her former business partner, and the plot she allegedly came up with,

the attempted abduction of her own daughter. That story is next.

[18:30:07] (COMMERCIAL BHREAK)

[18:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: This is Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Tammy Steffan might only weigh about 100 pounds, a bikini model and fitness coach, who probably

won`t be competing anytime soon, because even at 100 pounds, Tammy is reportedly a heavyweight when it comes to staging a crime, like faking her

own daughter`s kidnapping, in order to frame a former business partner. And when Tammy called the cops to report the attempted abduction, she was ready

with all the details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Somebody tried grabbing my daughter. She was over feeding the dog outside then all of the sudden some man tried

grabbing her from the woods.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, I`m sorry, but your phone is breaking up, but I heard that your daughter is outside feeding the dog and

someone -- a man tried to grab her from the woods?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): She was feeding the dog.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK, the phone keeps breaking up, I`m sorry, OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): That`s OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): How old is your daughter?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): She is 12 years old.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): OK. Look, he had blacks short sleeve shirt and what else?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Black gloves.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Black gloves. What did he look like? Was he white, black, Hispanic?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Hispanic.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Wow, you hear those conversations there, the daughter too. Tammy suggested a suspect, telling police officers all about her old business

partner, and her daughter identified him too. But when police started doing a lot more digging, their story started to unravel, because that old

business partner was allegedly out of town on the evening that Tammy said it all happened.

And she`d just been caught on camera buying the notepad that police say they found in the woods, a notepad chock-full of information about her own

home that officers now say she wrote herself, because Tammy reportedly had reason to target her former business partner, but cops say her revenge plan

backfired.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS BEAMAN, CAPTAIN, PASCO COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: We have learned that a -- what I believe is a sick person, fabricated this whole event. And not

only is it sick because they fabricated it, but it`s sick because this mother of the 12-year-old utilized her daughter to perpetuate this

ridiculous report of crime.

And as a result, we`ve arrested Tammy Steffan for filing a false police report, tampering and/or fabricating evidence, and child neglect.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Lots of charges. And joining me now, Captain Chris Beaman. He is with the Pasco County Sheriff`s Office. Also "Crime & Justice" producer

Michael Christian, and trial attorney Randy Kessler is still with me.

Let`s go to you, Captain Beaman, because as we are hearing this whole story, the mom, 100 pounds, but again seems like a heavyweight at telling

stories, she calls your department. Take us from there. What does she say originally?

BEAMAN (via telephone): As you heard from the 911 call, she reported to tell us that, in fact, her daughter was almost abducted or somebody

attempted to abduct her daughter. And so as should be the case, we responded in force to this location.

We began to talk to her and her 12-year-old daughter to understand fully what exactly happened, because as anybody in law enforcement knows, when

these events, abduction or attempted abduction occurs, sometimes we have limited amount of time to resolve it before in some instances something

harmful happens to somebody who is abducted.

So we initially began trying to gather all the evidence, talk to everybody that we could. And we soon learned that things weren`t adding up. For those

that know, sometimes in high-stress events, people don`t always remember exact details and oftentimes in law enforcement that can be frustrating.

However, in this particular event, it was almost too many details that were known by this 12-year-old young lady. And so that was one of the first

clues that caused us to believe that something wasn`t as it seemed.

And in addition to that, whenever we provided those inordinate amount of details to Tammy, she immediately identified someone who she believed was

responsible for this. And so that just caused us to be suspicious and to begin to question the actual crime occurring.

[18:40:04] COSBY: Yeah, you bet. Sometimes too much information is a big tip-off, as you were saying there, captain. Let me go to Michael Christian

real quick. Michael, then also authorities discover things, right, in the woods? And those proved to be very significant.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, PRODUCER, CRIME & JUSTICE (via telephone): Yeah, that`s right, Rita. Near where this alleged incident took place, Tammy Steffan

pointed out a black laptop computer cover and also a blue notebook. Now, she said that she`d never seen either of these things before. Well, it

turned out, as the investigation continued, that wasn`t exactly the case.

COSBY: Yeah, tell us how they pieced it together, because of course then they find the Walmart surveillance which I want to show a little bit

because there`s video, it turns out, right, Michael, that basically turns her in?

CHRISTIAN (via telephone): Yeah, they realize that there has been a purchase at a Walmart. They check a Walmart in New Port Richey, Florida

which is near where this all happened. They find surveillance video of Tammy Steffan buying this laptop cover, also buying this notebook, also --

and this is the clincher, Rita, she bought a four-pack of colored pens.

And there are no notations, handwritten, in this discovered notebook. Three of those colors of the colored pens are used to write in that notebook.

COSBY: Oh, my goodness. It`s unbelievable when you hear all these pieces together. I want to play a little bit. This is Captain Beaman making some

comments about also some of the lengths that this bodybuilder went to to push her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEAMAN: What we learned through the investigation is that days leading up to this event, Tammy coached her 12-year-old daughter, which not only

included a walk through of where this was to happen or supposed to happen, and help her daughter perpetuate this lie, but she even went so far as to

have her daughter urinate herself to make it be more believable to law enforcement.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Captain Beaman, we just heard what she made her daughter urinate on herself. Is that true?

BEAMAN (via telephone): Yes, ma`am. And unfortunately, it is true. In the early stages of this investigation, it`s something that initially caused

our initial responding officers to believe that maybe this was actually legitimate.

It`s not frequent that we encounter folks that are so scared of an event that they urinate themselves, not totally uncommon, but it is fairly

infrequent. So unfortunately for this 12-year-old young lady, her mother did make her do that to legitimize and to make us believe that it actually

happened.

COSBY: So sad. Unbelievable. This poor, little girl, this 12-year-old girl forced to lie for her mom. You piece it together and you find text

messages, you find the notepad that we just heard Michael Christian talked about that was bought at Walmart and all these things come together. What

was the motive, do you believe, sheriff?

BEAMAN (via telephone): So it`s our belief at this time that she had some sort of vendetta, if you will, against a former business partner and/or

colleague. She felt, although incorrect and only in her mind, though, that he swayed votes for this Miss Health and Fitness magazine that she was in a

competition for.

And she believed that he had swayed the votes to therefore not allow her to advance to the next round of competition. And so that appears to be the

motive at this point.

COSBY: Unbelievable. And then apparently the daughter was forced to lie again. The mom gets busted, right? And then she`s caught on camera, I

guess, and on audio too talking, right? Tell us about that real quick.

BEAMAN (via telephone): So ultimately, we were alerted to the fact that she had called home and was talking to her daughter. So as in a lot of

jails, we have the ability to review jail phone calls in a lot of instances. When our investigators began to listen to what in fact she was

saying, she was again coaxing her daughter, manipulating her daughter, we would suggest psychologically damaging her child and continually trying to

get her daughter to take the blame --

COSBY: Unbelievable.

BEAMAN (via telephone): -- though she would hopefully say later otherwise.

COSBY: Unbelievable. And real quick, Randy Kessler, your reaction to this, all for vanity. Really quick, Randy.

KESSLER: Very hard to defend. The therapeutic intervention, what does the daughter want? Does she want to be away from her mom? If she needs her mom,

they got to find a way to let her stay in touch with her mom.

COSBY: Yeah, but the mom have to tell a story straight for a change too. That would be refreshing too.

KESSLER: Agree.

[18:45:00] COSBY: Thanks so much, Randy. And last week, Mollie Tibbets, a student at the University of Iowa went for an evening run. Her family

hasn`t heard from her since, and police have now visited virtually every home and building in the town of Brooklyn, Iowa. So where is Mollie? That

story is next.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: I`m Rita Cosby here, in for Ashleigh Banfield. Tonight, we are tracking two mysteries. Two young women who simply seemed to vanish out of

thin air. Twenty-year-old Mollie Tibbetts disappeared after going on a jog, a notoriously bright and bubbly student at the University of Iowa, who

hasn`t been seen now for five days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM CAULDAWOODS, MISSING WOMAN`S AUNT: The whole thing is just frustrating. You feel powerless. We hope this is just some sort of a big

misunderstanding and that she`s going to pop up. This is not like her at all. She`s very responsible and conscientious young woman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And the local sheriff says that they have searched every property in the area and now they`re reportedly investigating other leads.

And meanwhile, we are also learning what happened to the beautiful young mother of two who vanished from her Washington state home over two years

ago. And the answer is absolutely devastating. Jamie Haggard was finally found in a neighboring city by a road crew picking up trash. And when they

stumbled upon a suitcase, they found her remains inside.

Tonight, we know how Jamie died. The medical examiner who just identified her, saying she was violently killed. Now the hunt is on for her killer who

police believe is still out there.

And joining me to talk about both of these cases is Attorney Randy Kessler. Randy, let`s first start with the jogger case. The boyfriend, it was

interesting. He provided some clues that could be helpful, saying she always had electronic devices with her, always had her phone and things.

How could that help solve where she may be and what`s happened to her?

KESSLER: You know, this stuff -- you and I don`t even know about technology nowadays. They are going to track, they are going to find it.

Hopefully because it is only five days, if she had a phone on her, the phone might still have battery life, the technology stays alive.

Five days is a really good sign that they`re doing everything they can. Ten days, 20 days, two weeks, you`re in trouble. But right now, they got to

pull out all the resources.

COSBY: And you know, you talk about time, Randy. How heartbreaking to find that Jamie Haggard`s body was found by trash collectors in a suitcase two

years after the fact. That`s going to be a lot harder to piece together. You know, Randy, they couldn`t even identify what gender she was. That`s

how decomposed.

KESSLER: Yeah, it`s horrible. But they did find out who it was, who the body was. There`s some closure, I hope, for the family. But there`s a

suitcase. There might be -- DNA lasts a long time. There could be DNA on the suitcase.

Let`s not give up. At least they know what happened to her, terrible as it is. There`s some closure, I hope, for the family. And let`s hope the

suitcase reveals something. It`s better than not finding the body.

COSBY: Yes, absolutely. Let`s pray that there`s some resolution there. Thank you so much, Randy. And if you`re on the run from police, there`s a

million places that you can try to hide, but eventually, they will find you, even here. We`re going to sort it out for you next.

[18:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: I`m Rita Cosby, in for Ashleigh Banfield. One more thing, in Spokane, Washington, officers were reportedly responding to a tip about

someone suspected of violating a restraining order. Even they were surprised to find this man cooling his heels, hiding in the clothes dryer.

A police K-9 named Murphy sniffed him out and helped in the arrest. There were no injuries. And on its Facebook page, Spokane police said that the

adult version of hide and seek never turns out well for anyone.

And this past weekend, I was able to honor some great heroes for freedom. I spoke at the first official Medal of Honor Day parade in the state of New

York. Two brave Medal of Honor recipients, Paul Buka and Bob O`Malley (ph) attended, along with thousands of others lining the streets of beautiful

Carmel, New York.

And then Cheektowaga, New York just outside of Buffalo was a sea of white and red, the colors of my father`s homeland of Poland. The 80th annual

Pulaski Day parade also recognized the 100th anniversary of Poland regaining its independence.

And talk about a big and very memorable way to celebrate, Niagara Falls was also lit up white and red to honor courageous Poland. It was a truly

breathtaking sight and I`m so glad that I could be there. My dad is smiling from above.

And the next hour of "Crime & Justice" starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): My oldest daughter, I was taking a nap, I just woke up and I can`t find her anywhere.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Billy McCullen called 911 to ask for help finding 3-year-old Jordyn Dumont. The Gaston County Police say Jordyn

was never lost.

[18:59:59] They say McCullen murdered the toddler and hid her body hundreds of yards into the woods behind their Gaston County home.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tell me why, tell me how you could do it to a 3-year- old innocent child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice over): Eighteen-year-old Zachary Sliger and a 15-year-old girl plotted to kill her family after her mom refused to allow

her to become emancipated earlier in the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He fires the gun one time at dad. Turns the gun on mom. That was their plan to kill those three and moves along with life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tammy Steffen called 911 last Saturday and told dispatchers someone just try to kidnap her daughter. But today detectives

say the entire report was a fake.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have learn that what I believe is a sick person fabricated this whole event.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RITA COSBY, HLN HOST: And good evening, everybody. I`m Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. This is the second hour of CRIME & JUSTICE.

Today in North Carolina, multiple people were being selected to make a very dark decision, whether William McCullen beat his girlfriend`s 3-year-old

daughter to death when he was supposed to be taking care of her, and then pretended she simply disappeared.

Little Jordan was his girlfriend`s daughter, one of two girls who lived thin that house. In fact, she was wearing a best big sister t-shirt the

day her mom went to work at the local bar and grill leaving both girls at home with McCullen. Jordan was still wearing that beautiful t-shirt when

police found her body the next day, wrapped in a fitted black sheet and buried in a shallow grave. She was found just yards from that home, but

McCullen didn`t seem to know where she had gone when he first called the cops.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gaston county, 911. What`s the address of your emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. My oldest daughter, I was taking a nap, I just woke up and I can`t find her anywhere. I went to the neighbors, I

don`t know where she`s at.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How old is she?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She`s about to be four next month. I have a newborn with me, a one-year-old and I got her and I can`t find the other one. I

really need some help right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you looked under the beds and in the closet?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, ma`am. I called her name, though. I can`t find her anywhere. I went next door, I have been calling her name outside and I

can`t find her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She may have fallen asleep. I need you to go look under the beds and stuff. I have found people that way, OK?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. Yes, ma`am. My wife is at work. She is about to be home and I don`t know where our daughter is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is she a white female?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. She is wearing blue jeans and a long sleeve Mickey mouse shirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what color is her hair?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s brownish-blonde. I have got to go next door. I just want to check the neighbor`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, you stay with me for just a minute. I have already got people on the way, OK? You said she has light brown hair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: All right. And she was wearing blue jeans and a long sleeve Mickey mouse shirt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blue jean shorts and a long sleeve Minnie Mouse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Blue jean shorts and a long sleeve Minnie Mouse, sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

Please come out! I don`t know if she is just hiding or what, I don`t know. I can`t find her anywhere. She don`t do this. The door was wide open and

I cant find her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ok. Listen to me. The front door was open?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

Please come out. please come out.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He`s on a corded phone, so she`s having to tell me something and run and he is freaking. Like my wife is going to be home any

minute and I can`t find my girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. They are here now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Sounds authentic. Well, hours after that call, McCullen was under arrest and charged with first-degree murder. And now he is expected to

find out whether he could spend the rest of his life behind bars for allegedly taking the life of his girlfriend`s little daughter, little

Jordan. So young, so beautiful. And he was lying through his teeth all about it.

Well, joining me now to talk about all this is Dave Mack. He is a syndicated talk show host in Birmingham, Alabama. Also James Gagliano, he

is CNN law enforcement analyst and retired FBI supervisory special agent. Susan Constantine also joins us, jury consultant and body language expert

and trial attorney Randy Kessler.

I want to start with you, Dave, because when you hear that, he sounds pretty convincing. He sounds, oh, he was sobbing, doesn`t know where

little Jordan is. Take us through what happened when that 911 call was made.

DAVE MACK, SYNDICATED RADIO HOST (on the phone): Well, by now we know that she was never missing. Well, allegedly Billy McCullen had already taken

care of that. So when he picks up the phone to call, he has had time to do an incredible amount of damage to this almost 4-year-old girl at the time.

And when he makes that call, he is trying to set the stage. That`s why you notice, at the end of it, he even says, the front door was open. He`s

convincing at this.

But we also know that when the police did arrive, when we look back at the search warrants, that they found drug paraphernalia throughout the house.

And we know there was a history of involvement with the police during the nine months the family lived in that house, 16 different times police were

there, Rita. Sixteen times in nine months.

[19:05:28] COSBY: Yes, that is staggering.

Dave Mack, tell us about little Jordan. You mentioned she was almost four. Almost three years old. And the condition that her body was found in, and

it was right near the house.

MACK: Rita, it`s going to break your heart. When I read the autopsy report, all I could think of is this little girl. You know, by the way,

the clothing that he said she was wearing, the police were able to take that clothing out of the house. And as you mentioned to start this, she

was wearing a best sister t-shirt. So I don`t know what that Minnie Mouse plays into it, but that`s what he said she was wearing. But that`s what

they took out of the house.

She was beaten so bad, Rita, this little girl. I mean, she was three years old. Just the epitome of a child, and she was beaten so badly. The number

of blunt force trauma they were able to find. She had lacerations to her internal organs. She was beaten by this alleged monster. And then tucked

away, just wrapped up in a fitted sheet and thrown down a hole and covered with branches. And then you listen to that 911 call. Who could possibly

do that knowing what they had done?

COSBY: How did they piece it together, Dave? How did they finally put it together? Because as you point out, here she is found in this blanket and

also, by the way, multiple constitutions to her abdomen, her legs and her arms. How did they piece it together and put it back to him?

MACK: Actually, when they went in the house, they actually again, 16 calls to that house in nine months. They had a track record with this family.

When they were there to find Jordan, they were able to go into the house. They saw things that immediately they knew were not right. That`s why, if

you go back and look at the search warrant, it stated that they found a lot of blood throughout the house. So it immediately pointed to him. Because

her mother, Jordan`s mother was not home at the time this happened. It was just Billy McCullen. And so they just, based on the evidence.

And of course they did have to do kind of a parallel thing. They had to look for a possible missing child. But the evidence always pointed at this

damaging thing happening inside the home and Billy McCullen was the only adult there that could have done it.

COSBY: That`s right. He was supposed to be taking care of little Jordan and we know what happened to that beautiful little girl.

I want to play more of the 911 call. Because he just sounds pretty authentic. I think he deserves an Oscar. Here`s a little more.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: District attorney will let me know as it relates to a factual basis, is there anything you want to say? Otherwise your bond

stays at no bond today.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand. No bond.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: McCullen is asked back in court on September 6th. Meanwhile tonight, members of the Gaston County community are holding a

vigil for Jordan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And we are just hearing a little bit of that.

Susan Constantine, I want to bring in. There was also a little bit of the reporter there, because everyone has been covering this case.

Susan Constantine, you are a jury consultant. You are body language expert. We heard that call. He sounds like he is sobbing, oh my goodness.

How do you think that would play to a jury?

SUSAN CONSTANTINE, JURY CONSULTANT/BODY LANGUAGE EXPERT: Not very well, if they are very savvy. That was not a very good performance. Even though

maybe from a layman`s point of view it sounded pretty good, and believable. But when you really dissect it, from more of a forensic analysis of

statement analysis and you listen to his voice. At the very beginning, he doesn`t have much affect. There`s lack of emotion. His emotion doesn`t

begin and speed up until about halfway through. You often hear him use the word, ma`am, yes, ma`am. And a lot of times liars are overly polite. They

tend to do that.

There, he is also using what we call passive language. He says, you know, I looked around there, though, or I called her name out, though, and she

didn`t -- basically she didn`t answer. He was using passive language. But when you are dissecting his words, because words have meaning. He is

setting the stage up, like your first guest that was on the show here, was talking about setting the stage. And that`s exactly what I put in my

notes. That is exactly - he is trying to appeal to the listener or to the caller, that the door was left open, I was asleep, she`s now missing. And

then he starts to get hysterical. So when you look at things, listen to the voice and dissect the words, words are -- every single word has a

meaning. And it`s placed there for a specific reason because he chose it himself subconsciously.

[19:10:00] COSBY: Yes. I know you can hear. Once you hear it in mind sight, you go, oh, that`s interesting.

I want to go to James Gagliano. Because James, you heard a lot of these kind of chase. How does this sound to you?

GAGLIANO: This is the kind of case that seasoned homicide detectives and seasoned federal agents, these are insufferable cases. Just to deal with

that kind of heartbreak in a young child like this.

I looked at this the same way. The over-acting. A lot of times, people will emote when they are trying to be deceptive. You may say, well, they

are making eye contact with you during the interview or during the interrogation, they got to -- it`s got to be of conviction what they are

telling you, but they are purposely doing so.

The two things that are going to make this case, the hair and fiber evidence, or the potential DNA evidence that were found on the young child.

COSBY: The blood. The blood evidence in the house, I think that`s absolutely damning.

GAGLIANO: Absolutely. And the interview process. Talking to this guy, spending time with him and getting him to confess or getting him to come

around. Those are going to be the two things that would make this case.

COSBY: I want to play more of the 911 call, because now in hindsight, hearing your language, James, and Susan`s interpretation, here`s a little

bit more of the very dramatic 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My wife is at work. She is about to be home and I don`t know where our daughter is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is she a white female?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am. She is wearing blue jeans and a long sleeve Mickey mouse shirt.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And what color is her hair?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s brownish-blonde. I have got to go next door. I just want to check the neighbor`s house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, you stay with me for just a minute. I have already got people on the way, OK? You said she has light brown hair.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

Please come out! I don`t know if she is just hiding or what, I don`t know. I can`t find her anywhere. She don`t do this. The door was wide open and

I cant find her.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Listen to me. The front door was open?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, ma`am.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: I want to go to Dave Mack.

Dave, you talked about earlier, as we are hearing this, it is just so unbelievable to now know that he is now being charged. And of course the

trial just starting, apparently jury selection close to wrapping up already.

But let me ask you, Dave. You had talked about the other visits to the home. There were a lot of visits. Because this is not his daughter. This

is his girlfriend`s daughter. But there were repeated calls to that home about kids. Tell us about it.

MACK: Well, you have got the 3-year-old Jordan and her own biological father lives about 12 hours away in Illinois. In the 30 days prior or 60

days prior to this happening, he had made two calls to law enforcement asking for a welfare check, which they did. Police were actually there

five weeks before this happened, and as well as health and human services. And what they came back with, was, there was obviously drug use in the

home, and they needed to have a sober adult there, care-taking for these children. And that has to include the mother here.

But with regard to Billy, the last time they checked, they were both saying, we need to get this guy some help. He needs intervention, he needs

rehab. And obviously nothing like that happened, and he`s still left alone with both girls.

Now Jordan was from the mother`s previous relationship. The 1-year-old was actually between Billy and the mom. So there was a biological child and

then the non-biological child for Billy in this house.

COSBY: It is so heartbreaking. And a reminder also that the system also failed little Jordan as well as we are hearing this.

I want to go to Randy Kessler, 16 times to the house, Randy. And now you got this forensics, you got blood in the house. You have got - he is lying

about what she is wearing. I mean, there`s all these inconsistencies. How do you defend this guy, Randy?

RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: It`s a hard case to defend. It is so emotional. But again, there are no eyewitnesses. Susan said it right, to

a lay person --

COSBY: Randy, wait a minute. You make it sound -- there are rarely eyewitnesses to a crime. You are a good attorney. You know that. That is

B.S., my friend.

KESSLER: I`m going to focus on that. But Susan said that, you know, his 911 tape was very believable to the lay person. And that`s what the jury

is going to be. You might need an expert like Susan to say to the jury, let me tell you why he was lying. But without an expert, that 911 call is

probably pretty good for his defense.

COSBY: What about, though, the evidence in the house, Randy? What about the fact that there were repeated calls, 16 calls to the house? That`s

staggering.

KESSLER: It`s an uphill battle. I mean, the whole world thinks he did it. He started off -- he is supposed to be presumed innocent. He is going to

walk in, everybody is going to presume he is guilty which is why he is not go (INAUDIBLE). I can`t imagine they are not going to offer him something

that he is going to say, I would rather deal with this than the jury verdict. But, you know, he is stayed innocent until proven guilty until

now. Maybe that is his plan to just stay innocent until the jury convicts him. At least he was innocent until the final vote of the jury.

COSBY: All right. Let`s see where it goes. Thanks to you, guys.

A Nebraska mom is laying in a hospital with a gunshot wound to the hand and face. Police say her 15-year-old daughter and her 18-year-old boyfriend,

Zachary Sligar, were plotting a conspiracy to kill the entire family. That`s coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:20:21] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield.

Plenty of parents disapprove of their kids` relationship, especially when they are just teenagers, who are trying to tie the knot. But one teen

couple in Oklahoma reportedly wanted to be together so badly they were willing to kill for it.

CNN affiliate KFOR has been tracking their deadly love story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Very many plots to kill off a family especially being a juvenile with an adult boyfriend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that`s what happened in chandler Thursday night. 18-year-old Zachary Sligar and a 15-year-old girl plotted to kill her

family after her mom refused to allow her to become emancipated earlier in the night.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They come up with a plan to do a three-way homicide, by killing mom, dad, and an older sister that lives on the property, not in

the house.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Around midnight, Sligar left his home with a handgun and met the 15-year-old at her home while the family was asleep. She was

also armed with a gun.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Zachary was in the bedroom. He fires the gun one time at dad and misses. Shoots a hole in his pillow. Immediately turned the

gun on mom, shoots her one time in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 15-year-old told Sligar to go home so she could come up with a story. We don`t know what that story is but both were

arrested. Sligar picked up at Shanie (ph) home. The gun recovered at the scene.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was their plan, was to kill those three and move along with life.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had already packed their bags. Now they are headed to jail. The district attorney plans to file criminal charges

against Sligar for three counts of conspiracy to commit murder in the first-degree. One counting of shooting with intent to kill and one count

of assault and battery with a dangerous weapon. The 15-year-old will also be charged but as a youthful offender.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We prepare for everything and we get surprised every day. I have done this for 38 years and I have never heard of stuff like

this.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COSBY: Incredible story.

And joining me now to talk about all of this is Scott Mitchell, host of "Mitchell Talks" in Oklahoma city. Also James Gagliano, and he is with CNN

of course. He is a law enforcement analyst and retired FBI supervisory special agent. And trial attorney Randy Kessler.

This is such a wild story, Scott. Take us, first of all, because the dad calls 911, and let me play a little bit of the dad because it`s so

interesting. What a weird thing. He gets awoken to the sound of gun shots in his own home. And this is a little bit of that 911 call.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hello.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hello, this is Lincoln County, 911.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`m at (bleep), highway 18-b in Sparks here in Chandler. And we don`t know what happened. We think my wife may have just

gotten shot in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You think your wife got shot in the face.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bleeding horribly. We were just woken up by an explosion.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, just one second.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: What a wild thing. Wakes up to an explosion.

Scott Mitchell, at first when you hear that call, the dad doesn`t seem to know who is behind it, right? When he makes the original call?

SCOTT MITCHELL, HOST, MITCHELL TALKS (on the phone): Yes, he has woken from a deep sleep apparently about midnight. Actually sounds pretty cool

and collected for what`s just happened. So here`s this right out of their sleep, this explosion, which turns out to be a gunshot, couple of gun

shots. And then the story begins from there. It`s frightening. A little bit like, remember that `90s movie "Natural Born Killers," it`s a twist on

that. It is bizarre.

COSBY: Yes, it sure does because it turns out that the girlfriend says, I`ll stay back. As it turns out, the guy does it pulls the gun, the

girlfriend stays back. But walk us through this concoction, because they were only dating about five months?

MITCHELL: They hadn`t been together for very long. But I mean, they are kids. I mean, she is 15 years old. So we have got hormones, immaturity,

and rank stupidity. So apparently, Rita, what had happened earlier in the evening is this minor and her mother, who was shot later that evening, had

an argument or a discussion where the young lady wanted to be emancipated so she could run off with this guy. And basically she was sent to her

room, the answer was no. And then the wheels began to turn on the plot for murder.

[19:25:01] COSBY: How did they finally get busted? Because there`s so many questions to this case, Scott Mitchell. How do they piece it

together?

MITCHELL: Well, we are not dealing with the sharpest knives in the drawer here. So he goes home and she stays there. So whatever happened at that

particular point with the sheriff`s department, they just copped right away. She told everything. Of course that told where he was going, and

when he got home, the cops in that jurisdiction were waiting on him. And they just gave it all up. They said everything that they had plotted and

planned. There wasn`t any -- they didn`t have to work very hard. So they got all the details from the two kids.

COSBY: Unbelievable story. James Gagliano, I want to go to you. Because you piece all this together, apparently the "Natural Born Killers" is such

a great analogy that Scott was just saying. And you hear them planning it from what they pieced together now. The plan was to get the mom and the

dad and then the sister who lives on the property, taking both guns. Now, how do you piece this together? There`s a lot of forensics here. I think

forensics play a big role in this case.

GAGLIANO: Sure. You are dealing with two minors. Now, essentially some state --.

COSBY: Well, one minor.

GAGLIANO: Right. He`s 18 years old, will be treated as an adult. They were allowed to have a relationship in Oklahoma because of the Romeo and

Juliette clause which allows people under the age of 18 --

COSBY: To have a relationship?

GAGLIANO: Yes. So you have essentially two kids here. And as they think through this thing and they begin to plan it, it just became just a number

of errors. And what ended up happening is, I`m certain that the 15-year- old basically got cold feet. And the 18-year-old, who had an opportunity with two people supine in bed, who were unsuspecting. You heard the 911

call, the father didn`t even know what happened. Just described it as an explosion because it happened in the middle of the night. And didn`t go

through with it and make it happen. So two young kids, a big part of this is going to be the statements that were given afterwards. Because in many

states, a minor has to be represented by either another adult or a parent or a guardian to be interviewed by police. So that`s going to be

interesting. What the statements were, what`s going to be admissible in this.

COSBY: You know, one of the other things is this whole emancipation thing.

Randy Kessler, explain this, because in Oklahoma, you have to be, what, under the age of 18 to file emancipation. How does that work?

KESSLER: So if you want to be emancipated, you can either - there are couple of things you can do. You can graduate high school and move on, and

then you are emancipated. You can join the armed forces. In some states, you can get married. If none of those happened, you can file a document

saying, I want to be emancipated. I don`t want to be under my parents` guidance anymore. I want to make my own decisions. That would have been

an easier way than what they tried.

COSBY: You bet. Now let me ask you in the case and this is so interesting too. Because in the case here, had she been emancipated, say the mom had

granted the wish, could she have been tried as an adult? Would she have been considered an adult? I guess be careful what you wish for?

KESSLER: Be careful what you wish for, but the ultimate decision comes down to the prosecutor. Do they think she has the mental capacity of an

adult or do they want to treat her as a juvenile and give her a chance to get back into society. And it sounds like the right decision for a 15-

year-old.

COSBY: Well. And James, you know, there`s a lot of planning here when I look at this, too. Because they were both taking each others` fathers`

guns, OK. But it`s her dad`s gun that she apparently took that was used in this killing. That hurts her big time too. It`s not like -- Randy`s like,

well, you know, this 15-year-old, feel sorry for them. Sounds like she was pretty involved in this. Planned the scheme, maybe she didn`t pull the

trigger, but boy, there`s a lot of evidence against her.

And that premeditation is critical in this. There was absolutely an elaborate plan that was executed and not just completed. The thing that`s

going to be the mitigating factor here is their ages, to the attorney`s point. You know, the ages are going to be a critical part of this

assessment as far as their premeditation. Did the 15-year-old really understand the scope of what she was doing.

COSBY: Randy Kessler, are we supposed to feel sorry for her as James was saying because she is 15 years old?

KESSLER: I`m not saying feel sorry for her, but the question is, do you treat a 15-year-old the same as you treat a 30-year-old or a 40-year-old?

You know, she is going to be punished, she`s going to be living with this - -

COSBY: She planned to kill both her parents and the sister. Her own family. This is not mother Teresa, Randy.

KESSLER: That`s the allegation. And you are right, in the public image and on court TV, sure. But in the court of law, she gets treated like a

juvenile because that`s how we treat juveniles. We give them a chance at getting back --

COSBY: Right. But don`t you think she`s culpable, Randy? Explain because it is not -- look, it was her father`s gun that she got. It`s not like he

broke into the place and planned this scheme on his own.

KESSLER: Do I think she is culpable? She looks culpable from the parents` sake, but that`s not beyond the reasonable doubt. That is not the proof --

the standard of proof we need. I think she is going to be treated as a juvenile and she will have a chance to get back into society.

COSBY: All right. But we shall see what happens, guys. Thank you.

Meantime, police say a bikini model and mother was looking to get revenge on her former business partner, and the plot she allegedly came up with,

the attempted abduction of her own daughter. That story is next.

[19:30:00]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:35:13] COSBY: And this is Rita Cosby in for Ashleigh Banfield. Tammy Steffen might only weigh about 100 pounds, a bikini model and fitness

coach, who probably won`t be competing anytime soon. Because even at a 100 pounds, Tammy`s reportedly a heavyweight when it comes to staging a crime,

like faking her own daughter`s kidnapping in order to frame a former business partner. And when Tammy called the cops to report the attempted

abduction, she was ready with all the details.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TAMMY STEFFEN, DEFENDANT: Somebody tried grabbing my daughter. She was over feeding the dog that was outside then all of the sudden some man tried

grabbing her from the woods. She is -- she`s (INAUDIBLE)

DISPATCHER: OK. I`m sorry. The phone is breaking up, but I heard that your daughter is outside feeding the dog and someone -- a man tried to grab

her from the woods?

STEFFEN: She was feeding the dogs --

DISPATCHER: The dog. OK. The phone keeps breaking up, I`m sorry. OK?

STEFFEN: That`s OK.

DISPATCHER: And how old is your daughter?

STEFFEN: She`s 12 years old.

DISPATCHER: OK.

STEFFEN: Well, he had black short sleeve shirt and what else?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Black gloves.

STEFFEN: Black gloves. What did he look like?

DISPATCHER: Was he white, black, Hispanic?

STEFFEN: White, black, Hispanic?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)

STEFFEN: Hispanic.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: Wow, you hear those conversations of the daughter, too. Tammy suggested a suspect, telling police officers all about her old business

partner, and her daughter identified him, too. But when police started doing a lot more digging, their story started to unravel, because that old

business partner was allegedly out of town on the evening that Tammy said it all happened. And she`d just been caught on camera buying the notepad

that police say they found in the woods, a notepad chock-full of information about her own home that officers now say she wrote herself.

Because Tammy reportedly had reason to target her former business partner. But cops say her revenge plan backfired.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CPT. CHRIS BEAMAN, PASCO COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE (via telephone): We have learned that a -- what I believe is a sick person, fabricated this whole

event. And not only is it sick because they fabricated it, but it`s sick because this mother of the 12-year-old utilized her daughter to perpetuate

this ridiculous report of crime. And as a result, we`ve arrested Tammy Steffen for filing a false police report, tampering and/or fabricating

evidence, and child neglect.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: Lots of charges. And joining me now, Captain Chris Beaman, he is with the Pasco County Sheriff`s Office; also CRIME & JUSTICE producer

Michael Christian; and trial attorney Randy Kessler is still with me. Let`s go to you, Captain Beaman, because as we`re hearing this whole story,

the mom, a 100 pounds but again, this seems like a heavyweight at telling stories, she calls your department. Take us from there. What does she say

originally?

BEAMAN: So, as you heard from the 911 call, she reported to tell us that, in fact, her daughter was almost abducted, or somebody attempted to abduct

her daughter. And so, as should be the case, we responded in force to this location. We began to talk to her and her 12-year-old daughter, to

understand fully what exactly happened, because as anybody in law enforcement knows, when these events, i.e, an abduction or an attempted

abduction occurs, sometimes we have limited amount of time to resolve it before in some instances something harmful happens to somebody who is

abducted. So, we initially began trying to gather all the evidence, talk to everybody that we could, and we soon learned that things weren`t adding

up.

For those that know, sometimes in high stress events, people don`t always remember exact details. And in oftentimes in law enforcement, that could

be frustrating. However, in this particular event, it was almost too many details that were known by this 12-year-old young lady. And so, that was

one of the first clues that caused us to believe that something wasn`t as it seemed. And in addition to that, whenever we provided those inordinate

amount of details to Tammy, she immediately identified someone who she believed was responsible for this. And so, that just caused us to be

suspicious and to begin to question the actual crime occurring.

[19:40:06] COSBY: Yes, you bet. Sometimes too much information is a big tip-off, as you were saying there, Captain. Let me go to Michael Christian

real quick. Michael, then also authorities discover things, right, in the woods? And those proved to be very significant.

MICHAEL CHRISTIAN, HLN SENIOR FIELD PRODUCER (via telephone): Yes, that`s right, Rita. Where this -- or near where this alleged incident took place,

Tammy Steffen pointed out a black laptop computer cover, and also a blue notebook. Now, she said that she`d never seen either of these things

before. Well, it turned out, as the investigation continued, that wasn`t exactly the case.

COSBY: Yes, tell us how they pieced it together. Because, of course, then they find the Wal-Mart surveillance which I want to show a little bit,

because there`s video, it turns out, right, Michael, that basically turns her in?

CHRISTIAN: Yes, they realized that this has been purchased at a Wal-Mart. They check a Wal-Mart in New Port Richey, Florida, which is near where this

all happened in Holiday. They found surveillance video of Tammy Steffen buying this laptop cover, also buying this notebook, and this is the

clincher, Rita, she bought a four-pack of colored pens. And there are notations handwritten in this discovered notebook, three of those colors of

the colored pens, are used to write in that notebook.

COSBY: Oh, my goodness. It`s unbelievable when you hear all these pieces together. I want to play a little bit. This is Captain Beaman making some

comments about also some of the lengths that this bodybuilder went to, to push her daughter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BEAMAN: What we learned through the investigation is that days leading up to this event, Tammy coached her 12-year-old daughter, which not only

included a walkthrough of where this was to happen, or supposed to happen, and help her daughter perpetuate this lie, but she even went so far as to

have her daughter urinate herself to make it be more believable to law enforcement.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: Captain Beaman, we just heard, what, she made her daughter urinate on herself, is that true?

BEAMAN: Yes, ma`am. And unfortunately, it is true. In the early stages of this investigation, it`s something that initially caused our initial

responding officers to believe that maybe this was actually legitimate. It`s not frequent that we encounter folks that are so scared of an event

that they urinate themselves, not totally uncommon, but it is fairly infrequent. So unfortunately, for this 12-year-old young lady, her mother

did make her do that to legitimize and to make us believe that it actually happened.

COSBY: So sad. Unbelievable. This poor, little girl, this 12-year-old girl forced to lie for her mom. You piece it together and you find text

messages, you find the notepad that we just heard Michael Christian talk about that was bought at Wal-Mart and all these things come together. What

was the motive, do you believe, Sheriff?

BEAMAN: So, it`s our belief at this time that she had some sort of vendetta, if you will, against a former business partner, and/or colleague.

She felt, although, incorrect and only in her mind, though, that he swayed votes for this Miss Health and Fitness magazine that she was in a

competition for, and she believed that he had swayed the votes to then therefore not allow her to advance to the next round of competition. And

so, that appears to be the motive at this point.

COSBY: Unbelievable. And then, apparently, what the daughter was forced to lie again. The mom gets busted, right? And then, she`s caught on

camera, I guess, and on audio, too, talking, right? Tell us about that real quick.

BEAMAN: So, ultimately, we were alerted to the fact that she had -- she had called home and was talking to her daughter. So, as in a lot of jails,

we have the ability to review jail phone calls, in a lot of instances, and when our investigators began to listen to what, in fact, she was saying,

she was again, coaxing her daughter, manipulating her daughter, we would suggest psychologically damaging her child, and continually trying to get

her daughter to take the blame. Though, she would (INAUDIBLE) later otherwise.

COSBY: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. And real quick, Randy Kessler, your reaction to this, all for vanity. Really quick, Randy.

KESSLER,: Very hard to defend. The therapeutic interventionists are going to have to help, what does the daughter want, does she want to be away from

her mom? If she needs her mom, they got to find a way to let her stay in touch with her mom.

COSBY: Yes, but the mom has to tell a story straight for a change, too. That would be refreshing, too, Randy.

KESSLER: Agreed.

[19:45:01] COSBY: Thanks so much, Randy. And last week, Mollie Tibbetts, a student at the University of Iowa went for an evening run. Her family

hasn`t heard from her since, and police have now visited virtually every home and building in the town of Brooklyn, Iowa. So, where is Mollie?

That story is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:50:20] COSBY: And I`m Rita Cosby here in for Ashleigh Banfield. Tonight, we are tracking two mysteries, two young women who simply seemed

to vanish out of thin air. 20-year-old Mollie Tibbetts disappeared after going on a jog, a notoriously bright and bubbly student at the University

of Iowa, who hasn`t been seen now for five days.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM CAULDAWOODS, MISSING WOMAN`S AUNT: The whole thing is just frustrating. You feel powerless. We hope this is just some sort of a big

misunderstanding and that she`s going to pop up. This is not like her at all. She`s very responsible and conscientious young woman.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COSBY: And the local sheriff says that they have searched every property in the area and now they`re reportedly investigating other leads.

And meanwhile, we are also learning what happened to the beautiful young mother of two who vanished from her Washington State home over two years

ago. And the answer is absolutely devastating. Jamie Haggard was finally found in a neighboring city by a road crew picking up trash. And when they

stumbled upon a suitcase, they found her remains inside.

Tonight, we know how Jamie died. The medical examiner who just identified her, saying she was violently killed. Now, the hunt is on for her killer

who police believe is still out there. And joining me to talk about both of these cases is Attorney Randy Kessler. Randy, let`s first start with

the jogger case. The boyfriend, it was interesting, he provided some clues, that could be helpful, saying she always had electronic devices with

her, always had her phone and things. How could that help solve where she may be and what`s happened to her?

KESSLER: Well, you know, this stuff that you and I don`t even know about technology nowadays, they`re going to track, they`re going to find it,

hopefully, because it`s only five days, the sound isn`t dead. If she had her phone on her, the phone might still have battery life, the technology

stays alive. Five days is a really good sign that they`re doing everything they can. In 10 days, 20 days, two weeks, you`re in trouble. But right

now, they`ve got to pull out all of the resources.

COSBY: And you know, you talk about time, Randy. How heartbreaking to find that Jamie Haggard`s body was found by trash collectors in a suitcase

two years after the fact. That`s going to be a lot harder to piece together. You know, Randy, they couldn`t even identify what gender she

was, that`s how decomposed.

KESSLER: Yes, that`s horrible. But they did find out who she -- who it was, who the body was. There`s some closure I hope for the family, but

there`s a suitcase and there might be -- DNA lasts a long time and there could be DNA on the suitcase. Let`s not give up. At least they know what

happened to her as terrible as it is, there`s some closure, I hope, for the family. And let`s hope the suitcase reveals something. It`s better than

not finding the body.

COSBY: Yes, absolutely. Let`s pray that there`s some resolution there. Thank you so much, Randy.

And if you`re on the run from police, there`s a million places that you can try to hide but eventually they will find you, even here. We`re going to

sort it out for you, next.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COSBY: And "ONE MORE THING," police really have to leave no stone unturned and no clothes drier unchecked when searching for a suspect. Officers

found this man hiding in the clothes drier of a home in Spokane, Washington. They reportedly were responding to a tip about someone

suspected of violating a restraining order. A police K-9 named "Murphy" sniffed him out and helped in the arrest. On its Facebook page, Spokane,

Washington said that the adult version of hide and seek never turns out well for anyone, no one was injured.

Well, this past weekend, I was able to honor some great heroes for freedom. I spoke at the first official Medal of Honor Day parade in the state of New

York. Two brave Medal of Honor recipients, Paul Bucha and Bob O`Malley attended along with thousands of others lining the streets of beautiful

Carmel, New York. And in Cheektowaga, New York just outside of Buffalo, it was a sea of white and red, the colors of my father`s homeland of Poland.

The 88th annual Pulaski Day parade also recognized the 100th anniversary of Poland regaining its independence. And talk about a big and memorable way

to celebrate, Niagara Falls was also lit up white and red to courageous Poland. It was truly a breath-taking site, and I was so glad to be there

to see it.

Well, we will see you back here tomorrow night at 6:00 p.m. Eastern Time. And you can listen to the show any time. Download the podcast on Apple

Podcast, iHeart Radio, Stitcher, TuneIn, or wherever you get your podcast for your CRIME & JUSTICE fix. Thanks for watching, everybody.

"SOMETHING`S KILLING ME" begins right now.