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Hatch Weighs in on Testimony; Ford Testifies on Capitol Hill; White House Watching Hearings. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired September 27, 2018 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[13:00:00] WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: He was 17. She says she was 15.

An emotional Ford was also asked about her strongest memory from the alleged assault.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRISTINE BLASEY FORD, ACCUSES KAVANAUGH OF SEXUAL ASSAULT: Indelible in the HIPAA campus is the laughter. The uproarious laughter between the two and their having fun it's my expense.

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: You've never forgotten that laughter? You've never forgotten them laughing at you?

FORD: They were laughing with each other.

LEAHY: And you were the object of the laughter?

FORD: I was, you know, underneath one of them while the two laughed. Two friends having a really good time with one another.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

JAKE TAPPER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let's bring in CNN congressional correspondent Sunlen Serfaty, who is on Capitol Hill.

And, Sunlen, Senator Hatch has weighed in on Ford's testimony.

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right, we are getting some first response from the members of the committee as they've been flooding out of that committee room. And my colleague, Liz Flanders (ph), just did speak with Senator Orrin Hatch as he was leaving, a top Republican here. And I do want to highlight some rather eyebrow raising comments that he said. He said, I will say this of Christine Blasey Ford, she's attractive and she's a nice person. And my colleague followed up, what specifically did he mean, of course, by using the word attractive? And Hatch said, I said, in other words, she's pleasing.

So certainly when every word matters here, many people are paying attention to each and every word that these senators say. And certainly the optics of what many Republican men on this committee are saying as they leave.

Now, I have to tell you, I also spoke with a Republican source with close -- who is close to this committee process and asked this person, how is everything going on your side? How do you think everything is going? And this source said, Kavanaugh better be as compelling. That's certainly acknowledgement that Christine Blasey's voice carried a lot of weight. And it certainly was compelling this morning.

Jake. Wolf.

BLITZER: All right, Sunlen.

Kirstin Powers is with us. Rick Santorum is with us as well.

Kirsten, how's it going?

KIRSTEN POWERS: Well, I don't think it's going very well for Republicans certainly. She's incredibly compelling. And this is not a person who, you know, looks like she's making anything up. She's very emotional. She's clearly very anxious, I think, which goes along with sort of what has been presented about her, that she was very anxious about coming forward.

She's talked about having an anxiety disorder, having this fear of flying, which the prosecutor, or the woman who's, you know, Rachel Mitchell, the person who's asking the questions seems to have locked in on the idea that, you know, well, you say you were afraid of flying, but then you flew these other places. I think that if this is what is their smoking gun, they're in a lot of trouble, because anybody who knows anything about anxiety disorders knows that you can get on a plane when you're afraid of flying. You tend to do it more likely if you're going to see your family than if you're going to be questioned by people who have been calling you a pawn and a liar.

BLITZER: Senator Santorum, she is very, very compelling.

RICK SANTORUM, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I would say that just watching her, that she seems authentic. I mean the emotional responses, even the humor that she -- that she emoted at times. It's -- everything just seemed authentic.

And that's a problem for Brett Kavanaugh. And I think that's what Republicans are dealing with right now is that, you know, they're not -- they're not sure about the story because they want to believe Brett Kavanaugh because, you know, Brett Kavanaugh's a good, upstanding man and all of these other things and he said, factually, this didn't happen. And so I think most folks are saying, you know, I'd probably believe him. He's got a pretty good track record.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Senator -- senator, before you said that she could be a pawn of the Democrats.

TOOBIN: You said she was -- you think that she's a pawn? Do you think she's a pawn?

BASH: What do you think now?

SANTORUM: I -- well, I say that she is being used as a pawn. I'm not saying she is a pawn. BASH: Right. No, no, I know, but do you think she's coming --

SANTORUM: I'm saying that she is being used as a pawn.

BASH: Do you think she's coming across that way?

SANTORUM: I'm -- you know, sometimes pawns can take kings.

TAPPER: Jeff Toobin, let me ask you a question about this fear of flying thing, because we are seeing Republicans, Donald Trump Jr. on Twitter, Lindsey Graham just now, suggesting that they don't believe that she has a fear of flying. I suppose the idea is, and I can't speak for them because I don't understand the conspiracy theory being floated, but I would guess that they're saying, she never had a fear of flying. She -- they -- the Democrats wanted this big splashy hearing as opposed to having her come earlier to give testimony.

What do you make of it all?

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the technical legal term for that argument is idiotic (ph). I mean she doesn't like to fly. A lot of people don't like to fly. It makes them nervous. It may be related to an earlier trauma. But, guess what, she's a person who lives a modern life and she flies anyway. Sometimes she files because she wants to go somewhere for vacation. Sometimes she wants to see her family. Sometimes she has a work travel. But she doesn't like it. So what. I mean it's just -- it's just a complete so what.

[13:05:09] TAPPER: I suppose that they're trying to get credibility.

TOOBIN: Well, the idea that -- I mean the logical progression is that she doesn't really have a fear of flying. She's exaggerating the impact of this supposed attack. So the attack didn't really happen anyway. Anyone who could believe that progression of arguments is just a fool.

POWERS: Can I also say something about that, though? You know, I have suffered with anxiety my entire life. And I actually have ahold of it now. But when I was young, in my 20s, I was -- I had suffered from anxiety disorder. I was terrified of flying. But I would fly to go see my family or I might go on vacation, but I really avoid it at all costs, and I was usually heavily medicated.

The way anxiety works is that when something anxious happens and triggers you, like, for example, having to testify in front of the entire country, you are now going to become incapacitated. I mean that really is how anxiety works, that you will become so much more incapacitated at the thought of getting on a plane, all your other fears become so much bigger than they might be when you're going with your brother and your mom on a trip somewhere.

TAPPER: And really, Gloria Borger, none of this gets at the issue of, did Brett Kavanaugh attack Christine Blasey Ford in 1982 and has he lied about it?

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Right. And did he lie. And has he lied about it.

And we heard from our reporters on The Hill that Lindsey Graham, who is probably chafing right now, wants to hear more, for example, about who got her home that night. Who took her there who got her home --

TAPPER: Because she says she doesn't remember.

BORGER: Perhaps to prove that perhaps she was inebriated or -- and that would affect her memory of all kinds of events, which is something you would expect a lawyer to do, but they haven't, you know, they haven't gotten to that yet. And now we're going to hear more from her. And then when Kavanaugh -- when Kavanaugh comes, he's clearly going to tell a different story. And unless Rachel Mitchell discredits Professor Ford in one way or another, he's going to have a very, very difficult time.

BASH: And can I just add one quick thing? It's obviously a very controversial decision now that we're watching her to see Rachel Mitchell take over for Republicans.

But in the hallways, Orrin Hatch, who is a senior member of the committee, said the following, it's too early to say if Ford is credible. But then he said, I don't think she's un-credible. I think she's an attractive, good witness. I think -- we know what he meant. He meant to sort of give her props. But the language that he used, "attractive good witness" --

TAPPER: Yes.

BASH: Is Exhibit A of why Republicans --

SANTORUM: Why you don't want these guys --

BASH: Took it away from all the men and gave it to a woman.

BORGER: Yes.

TAPPER: Suddenly hiring Rachel Mitchell makes a lot of sense.

Wolf.

BLITZER: You know, we're going to take a quick break. They're in recess right now, the Senate Judiciary Committee. When they come back, we're still waiting to hear from Senator Mazie Hirono, Senator Cory Booker, Senator Kamala Harris, among the Democrats, and Rachel Mitchell will continue the questioning for the Republicans.

Much more of our special coverage right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:10:30] Welcome back to our special coverage. The Senate Judiciary Committee now taking a break. They're in recess. They should be resuming momentarily. And Christine Blasey Ford, the professor, will continue answering questions.

The White House is watching this oh so closely right now.

I want to go to our Kaitlan Collins over at the White House.

What are you hearing over there, Kaitlan?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, they're watching it incredibly closely. And essentially aides are glued to their televisions right now, including President Trump, who just returned back here not that long ago after a flight from New York. He went into the White House residence, not the West Wing where the Oval Office is, to watch more of this as this coverage plays out after Sarah Sanders said that he had been watching it on Air Force One on a bit of a delay because of a meeting he had up at the United Nations this morning.

But we know that he's watching it. We know that he's cleared his schedule to watch the rest of this hearing today because they announced that he will no longer be meeting with the deputy attorney general, Rod Rosenstein, as he had planned to do because they do not want to interfere with this hearing.

The same is happening with the vice president, Mike Pence, who was supposed to drop in on an economic council later today. He's also no longer doing that because he's also here at the White House watching to see how their Supreme Court nominee is going to perform.

Now, Wolf, we know that the president advised Brett Kavanaugh to come out and be forceful and aggressive in his denials because he doesn't think he's been aggressive enough and assertive enough in swatting down these allegations from Christine Blasey Ford. Now, whether or not he takes the president's advice, we'll find out pretty soon when he does come out and deliver his opening statement and he answers questions about this.

But, Wolf, we also know President Trump left himself a lot of wiggle room yesterday, as we watched the press conference in New York, to say he could also be convinced by this woman's testimony. He could also be persuaded by that. So whether or not the president does ultimately make the decision to pull Brett Kavanaugh's nomination to the Supreme Court, if it appears that this woman has made a really convincing argument and they're not going to have the votes to get him confirmed, is still something that is to be determined and we don't know yet.

But what we do know is that certainly has not been ruled out yet here at the White House and President Trump is watching this very, very closely, Wolf and Jake.

TAPPER: All right, Kaitlan Collins at the White House.

One of the things, Nia, that I said at the beginning of this process earlier today was that Democrats and Republicans on Capitol Hill both agreed, or all sides agreed, that the more that this testimony becomes about the movement and the moment of Me Too, the worse for Brett Kavanaugh, the more it's just about specific -- this charge against him, the better, although it's not good, but the better for him.

And we are hearing now from one of our reporters, Clare Foran, asked Senator Shelley Moore Capito, Republican, West Virginia, that's a safe seat, what do you think -- do you think Dr. Ford is -- what do you think of her testimony? And Shelley Moore Capito, who until now has not really been a question in terms of whether or not she's going to vote for Kavanaugh --

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: Right.

TAPPER: Shelley Moore Capito saying, Senator Capito saying, I think her testimony is riveting.

And one of the things that's been amazing I think for a lot of men about this Me Too movement is, oh, my God, you read your FaceBook feed, you read your Twitter feed, every woman I know has experienced something like this and it's shocking.

HENDERSON: Yes. And we've talked about it throughout our lives in different periods of our lives. Whether you're in high school, in college, on the job. This is something that women talk about. And now America is seeing that, seeing these conversations that had been kept private. And they're also understanding why they had been kept private, right? It's something that Dr. Ford has talked about, this fear of the shame that obviously she has faced throughout her life, not wanting to tell her parents. Still, after all these years, not really wanting to talk about this with her parents.

So I am not surprised that average women, like Shelley Moore Capito, are finding this riveting. And you wonder if me too are asking their daughters. You mentioned Chris Wallace asking his daughters and perhaps his friends as well. And I think you would get these testimonies. I encourage men to do that, (INAUDIBLE) daughters, if they have sisters, and they will hear often the same kind of testimony.

JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And then taking that same conversation to the short-term challenge for Republicans, which is a math question. Mitch McConnell woke up this morning with a math issue. Susan Collins say, why aren't we subpoenaing Mark Judge? Why aren't we getting sworn testimony from an eyewitness? The question is, does Jeff Flake, on the Judiciary Committee, come out of this hearing today and say, I agree with her? That's all it takes. That's all it takes. He says he's still listening, according to our great Capitol Hill team.

Ben Sasse, the other key voice on this committee from the Republican side, during the break our MJ Lee reports walked up to Professor Ford, shook her hand and said, thank you for coming. Does he move on this?

Shelley Moore Capito, does she walk into the meeting that they're going to have either now -- this is mostly the committee members now -- but at some point does she walk into Leader McConnell's office and say --

[13:15:04] BASH: They're having a Republican lunch as we speak.

KING: Right. And say, wait a minute.

So he had a math issue this morning. He was trying to keep Susan Collins to be a party of one because if she gets two, he's got a problem. And so that was of the -- as of this morning. We've all watched what has played out today and the -- I can tell you the conversations inside the White House and among Republicans on Capitol Hill and Republicans running campaigns around the country is that this so far has been a horrible day for us.

BORGER: You know, Senator Whitehouse also made a very, very interesting point when -- when he was talking because he raised the prospect of a sitting Supreme Court justice being under an ongoing investigation if the Democrats were to take over one of the houses of Congress.

TAPPER: He said that on my show last week.

BASH: He said that to you.

BORGER: Yes, and I --

TAPPER: And it's -- like, they're going to -- they're actually going to investigate if they get gavels, as he puts it, and potentially impeach him.

BORGER: Impeach him. Impeach him. Or even, say he -- say he's withdrawn. What does this do for his current job?

HENDERSON: Yes.

KING: Right.

BORGER: I mean, right now, when he goes before this committee, the stakes are not only the Supreme Court.

KING: Right.

BORGER: The stakes are everything.

TAPPER (ph): His career.

KING: Right.

BORGER: His entire career, because if he perjured himself, this is an issue.

KING: And in their --

TOOBIN: (INAUDIBLE) --

KING: In their rush to do this, they have hurt Judge Kavanaugh.

TOOBIN: And --

KING: In their rush to do this to help Judge Kavanaugh --

BORGER: Yes. Yes.

KING: To get him on the Supreme Court as soon as possible. They have now hurt Judge Kavanaugh. Because if you believe Judge Kavanaugh --

BORGER: I agree --

KING: He's going into a hearing (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSS TALK)

TAPPER: Senator Santorum.

SANTORUM: Whether they had the hearing now or they had it a week from now, he came out and said, this did not happen. He -- the Republicans have no culpability in hurting Judge Kavanaugh if the public determines that he's not telling the truth. He's the one that made the statement, this did not happen, and he somehow has to convince the American public that it doesn't.

HENDERSON: And you imagine if he wanted an FBI investigation, he could have told the president, you know, why don't we launch this FBI investigation. Maybe he will do that.

BORGER: Well, maybe he'll do that. Maybe -- if I were Kavanaugh, let me ask Jeff Toobin who's a lawyer of some repute, let me ask you, if you were Kavanaugh now, wouldn't you be thinking about coming out and saying, let's call witnesses, because I am telling the truth here? And suddenly -- I mean would it be smart of him to do that?

BASH: Unless he doesn't have credible witnesses.

BORGER: Well --

TOOBIN: That's -- that's a good -- I mean that's a good question --

BORGER: Yes.

TOOBIN: If you really think, as Brett Kavanaugh, Mark Judge is going to help you.

HENDERSON: Right.

TOOBIN: I mean that -- you know, the only --

BORGER: Or the other people at the party.

TOOBIN: The obvious witness -- the obvious witness to call is Mark Judge. He's the one in the room, allegedly.

BORGER: He --

HENDERSON: Right.

BORGER: Right, because --

TOOBIN: And, you know, I think, yes, potentially that could -- that could stir the pot..

BORGER: Yes. TOOBIN: But it would also be seen as the panic button.

HENDERSON: Yes.

BASH: Yes.

BORGER: Yes.

TOOBIN: And I -- you know, whether that is a good thing or not, I don't know. What do you think, Rick?

BORGER: Interesting.

SANTORUM: Let's -- let's just be honest, there are -- I hate to say this, there are other alternatives than Brett Kavanaugh who can be a Supreme Court justice who are on the president's list right now who could get confirmed and get confirmed very quickly.

TAPPER: Yes.

BASH: That --

TAPPER: And this is what I'm wondering. At what -- at what point --

TOOBIN (ph): But not now.

TAPPER: Does the Republican shift?

BASH: Yes.

TAPPER: Just a few weeks before the midterm elections --

SANTORUM: Yes, immediately.

TAPPER: When they're already experiencing such difficulty with independents and with women voters. At what point does the ship just take on too much water.

BORGER: But this --

BASH: But, Jake, I'm hearing from Republican strategists in and around town focusing on one person, and that is the president. I mean so far, at least strategically, our focus has understandably, given the president's very aggressive stance on this, has been on the math, on the numbers, and whether or not the president would be forced to pull the nomination if the votes aren't there.

But as the morning went on, I'm sure you were all hearing this as well, the question has been, what is the president doing? Is he -- to say he's a wildcard is an understatement. But even on this -- and especially on this issue, could he do a 180 from yesterday, or was the fact that his press conference was the way it was so combative because he was worried and what you've seen this morning just spoke to all of his fears and make clear that they were warranted.

BORGER: But he opened the door yesterday. He opened the door at the presser saying, you know, I could find her convincing.

HENDERSON: He could be persuaded.

KING: Right.

BLITZER: And the question is, at what point do they decide, you know what, the votes aren't there. They're going to pull the nomination. There's not going to be a vote -- a vote.

POWERS: Right.

TAPPER: Well, the votes aren't -- the votes are not there right now.

BLITZER: They're certainly not there right now.

TOOBIN: It would be interesting to be a fly on the wall in that lunch, that Republican lunch.

BLITZER: Yes.

SANTORUM: I can tell you, it is a raucous lunch right now.

BLITZER: I'm sure it is.

BORGER: Yes.

BLITZER: Everybody stick around. The testimony is about to resume before the Senate Judiciary Committee. We're going to hear more from Professor Ford. And then we will hear from Judge Kavanaugh.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:23:14] TAPPER: Welcome back to CNN's special coverage.

Christine Blasey Ford will resume her testimony about her allegations against Judge Brett Kavanaugh any moment. But, first, I want you to take a listen to Republican Senator Lindsey Graham, he's a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: What happened to her, I don't know. Why don't you believe him? What is it about him you don't want to believe? I know why they don't want to believe him. They were going to vote no matter what. They've tried to destroy this guy's life with one acquisition after another, that he's a serial rapist, that some woman said I went to 10 parties where they're drugging and raping people. I don't believe that one bit.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

TAPPER: Senator Lindsey Graham defending Brett Kavanaugh. And accurately, Senator Santorum, pointing out that Democrats were opposed to him for other reasons long before these allegations. And yet I do wonder, is that the best defense to be offered at this moment?

SANTORUM: Look, I think -- and we talked about this -- the only way that you're going to begin to turn this around before we get to Judge Kavanaugh is to begin to pick apart the story that was told, a compelling story that was told by Dr. Ford.

And there is a way to pick it apart. I mean you have four people who have come forward and said that didn't happen. So --

TOOBIN: No. No, that's not what they said. They said they are not aware that it happened.

SANTORUM: Well, no -- well, they --

TAPPER: If I could just -- can I just fact check you for one second.

SANTORUM: Well, in other words, when I say that --

TAPPER: The two people accused of being in the room deny it.

SANTORUM: Deny it.

TAPPER: And the two people who -- who she has named who were downstairs say they have no knowledge of it.

SANTORUM: And she has no corroborating evidence that it occurred. I mean nothing from the time. So I understand. I mean you heard my reaction. It was a very compelling testimony. But the evidence is not there to support it. And so somehow or another, you have to begin to raise up the specter that while she may feel those things and she may be emotionally engaged, but if you don't have the facts, you can't -- you can't convict someone --

[13:25:11] POWERS: This is what I --

SANTORUM: On just simply a recitation, uncorroborated by somebody.

TAPPER: Kirsten.

POWERS: This is how every sexual assault case is discussed. There's only usually one or two people involved. In this case there was potentially three people involved. And so you have to rely on other things.

Now, you have other people who have made sworn statements that she told them about this long before Donald Trump was president and Scalia died.

SANTORUM: But they weren't there.

POWERS: And any of these things were happening. But that's the point --

SANTORUM: The people that were there say that -- that they did not experience -- POWERS: But, hold on, senator -- senator -- but, senator, do you

understand that in most case of sexual assault there's only two people there and that people --

SANTORUM: But that's not the case here.

POWERS: No, but people still get convicted. It's not just based on what -- somebody denying it. They look at other things. So to suggest that there's no other evidence that can be entered into this that it happened --

SANTORUM: No, it's not a matter of no -- there's evidence that contradicts her story.

POWERS: It's when people -- when people tell --

TAPPER: Wait, can I -- can I say one thing. So I've heard this argument and, in fact, when I've interviewed Democratic senators I've made this argument, you know, there's a presumption of innocence. Where is the evidence? But the one thing that Democrats push back on, and I don't have a response to them is, OK, well, then, why aren't we trying to get more evidence?

POWERS: Right.

TAPPER: Why isn't there an FBI investigation? Why are the Democrats and Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee not subpoenaing Mark Judge, the other person in the room? And I don't have an answer to that. Do you?

SANTORUM: Yes, but I -- Chuck Grassley does. Chuck Grassley, which is --

TAPPER: Which is what, that there have already been six FBI investigations?

SANTORUM: Well, no, no, that they -- that the staff in the Senate Committee has investigated this. They have called witnesses. They have taken statements down. So they did what, in a sense, the FBI would do. They've asked for other witnesses. I mean --

TAPPER: Would that be sufficient for you if it was a Democratic staff and a Republican nominee? Would you say, oh, sure, I trust the staff on the Senate Judiciary Committee?

SANTORUM: If you look -- if you look at what the FBI is supposed to do in these types of situations, is simply present, here's what they say. It's not a matter of doing an investigation --

BLITZER: Hold -- but, senator, does it make any difference to you that another woman, Deborah Ramirez, who was a classmate of Judge Kavanaugh at Yale University, when they were both freshman, has now come forward and made similar allegations?

SANTORUM: Well, I wouldn't say they were similar allegations. And again, if you look at the corroborating evidence, those who have come forward and say, no, that that's not what happened. And so, again, you have another uncorroborated story.

And so I understand. You have a series of uncorroborated story. You say, ah, we have a pattern. No, you don't have a pattern because you don't have any evidence to support the story.

TAPPER: The fact that senators don't want to be having these conversations that we're just having with Senator Santorum right now, we're paying him for his, but the fact that senators --

SANTORUM: Not enough today.

TAPPER: The fact that senators who are up for reelection don't want to be having these conversations with constituents for the next eight weeks or whatever until the election, how much is that factoring into that?

KING: Well, you -- it is a critical point in this sense. We are having a conversation -- you're having a conversation sometimes about how these cases are litigated in courts of law. It's a question that's up to the judge what testimony to admit, it's up to the jury to follow a judge's instruction, and then a jury into a room to make a common sense decision that can then be upheld.

SANTORUM: That's not --

KING: But we're not talking about that.

SANTORUM: Yes.

KING: We're talking about first the committee and then the 100 senators who they're -- what is the standard? This is a question I ask. We know society has changed. We know the times have change. We have living, breathing proof in the emotional testimony we watched this morning of how remarkable and courageous that is. People at home can decide whether to believe it or not. The senators have to decide what the standard is, It's not written down in their rules anywhere. You've seen Senator Grassley get up in arms about the process. Well, forgive me, damn the process. What are you going to do about this?

TAPPER: Yes.

KING: And so when you see a Shelley Moore Capito say, this is riveting, when you have a Ben Sasse go up and thank the witness, we have to be reminded, this is about, for Mitch McConnell, can I get 50 votes?

TAPPER: And, Nia, can I just bring -- Nia, where do you think -- I mean somebody like Susan Collins, senator from Maine, swing vote, who is trying to get to yes on Kavanaugh, right, what does today do for her?

HENDERSON: I don't think it gets her closer to yes. I mean I think she's got to figure out what Kavanaugh is going to say. She has been already asking for more details, more witnesses. Why isn't Mark Judge coming forward? Why aren't they subpoenaing Mark Judge? And one of the reasons, that came across in her testimony is one of the reasons they might want to hear from Judge is because it places Mark Judge working in this I think it's a --

TOOBIN: Safeway.

HENDERSON: Safeway in Potomac.

BORGER: Right.

HENDERSON: She says that she saw him and then when she saw him it was awkward because of what she says happened. So, you know, I think if this -- if you're Susan Collins, you're moving further away from this. And not just Susan Collins. Like, if you're Marco Rubio, if you're just an average sort of moderate Republican, do you really want to take a vote at this point based on what we heard today and what we'll hear later?

BORGER: And I just -- I just heard from a Republican strategist who said -- who was very bullish on this at the beginning and he said, you know, I'm not sure what Kavanaugh can do to fix this in the end. She said 100 percent, you know, it happened. He will say 100 percent it didn't happen. So then people decide based on their guy and their eyes and so far that's just not good for us.

[13:30:12]