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FBI Completes Background Investigation into Supreme Court Nominee Brett Kavanaugh; Senators Begin to Review Recent FBI Background Investigation into Brett Kavanaugh; Vice President Takes on China. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired October 4, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:02] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Among them is Brett Kavanaugh's freshman roommate at Yale. Jamie Roche in an investigation exclusively with "AC 360" said that he believes that Kavanaugh lied under oath, is willing to be interviewed, but has not heard from the bureau.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAMIE ROCHE, BRETT KAVANAUGH'S FRESHMAN YALE ROOMMATE: When Brett started saying things about his drinking and his use of certain words, sexually oriented words, I knew he was lying because he was my roommate. We were in a room together. Our beds were 10 feet apart for a couple of months. And what struck me and made me more interested in speaking out about it is not only did I know that he wasn't telling the truth. I knew that he knew that he wasn't telling the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: We'll hear more from Jamie Roche later this hour. But joining us how is White House principle deputy press secretary Raj Shah. Good morning, Raj.

RAJ SHAH, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: Good morning, Alisyn. Thanks for having me on.

CAMEROTA: It's a pleasure to have you. We appreciate you taking time out of your very busy day to be here. I have a million questions for you, so I will try to go quickly with our allotted time. What can you share with us about the revelations from the FBI report?

SHAH: Well, let me just start by saying that the White House is precluded from outlining the details of an FBI supplemental background investigation or any background investigation. I just want to make that clear. That includes witness lists or the contents of the information.

What we can say is that it began on Friday on the president's order and was sent over to the White House pretty late yesterday. And 10 individuals were contacted. There was an initial list of four provided to us by the Senate. They were interviewed and then leads were followed up on. We feel very confident, without getting into the details, we feel very confident that when the senators have an opportunity to review this material as they have already -- they're just beginning to right now, that they are going to be comfortable voting to confirm Judge Kavanaugh.

CAMEROTA: Did the White House put limits on what the FBI could look into?

SHAH: So just to be cheer, and this is something I think has been lost in the process, a background investigation is not an investigation -- or criminal probe, for example. It doesn't seek to find a specific outcome. It seeks to find information for decision makers. The Senate has set a scope on what they are interested in. They have already investigated this matter through their own Senate process, through the Senate Judiciary Committee. They wanted interviews of additional individuals. Any background investigation has to have some form of limiting scope, and this time it's always in these matters set by the White House, but we deferred to the Senate's requests.

CAMEROTA: Did you put limits on whether the FBI could look into Brett Kavanaugh's past drinking?

SHAH: So to be clear, again, this man has gone through six FBI investigations.

CAMEROTA: But now new information has come forward since then. Just let's be clear, new information has come forward.

SHAH: I would question the veracity of some of it. But let me clear, he's gone through six FBI background investigations. Hundreds of people have been interviewed, members of his family, friends, neighbors. All of them get asked a standard battery of questions about suitability that includes questions about alcohol us, includes questions about, I don't know, potential gambling, fitness to serve, loyalty to their country. All these questions are covered.

And to be clear also, a lot of people are coming forward with claims about his high school and college drinking which the Senate hasn't asked us about, but also more importantly, he has already admitted in his testimony that he drank in high school, drank in college, sometimes drank too much, drank underage. He said he liked beer. I don't really know what folks who are demanding an open-ended fishing expedition into those areas want other than delay, delay, delay.

CAMEROTA: No. They want to know about memory lapses. The friends who have come forward said that they know that he had memory lapses, and he said that he didn't. And that's relevant because Christine Blasey Ford has a story about him being staggeringly drunk, and maybe he doesn't remember it.

SHAH: They're not actually claiming direct evidence of memory lapses. They're saying they don't necessarily believe his testimony.

CAMEROTA: No, no. They're saying that they know --

SHAH: What the Senate -- CAMEROTA: Hold on. Hold on. Let me just give you the real

information. They're saying they were his roommate in college. They knew him in high school. They were his drinking buddy. There are more than one --

SHAH: You're talking about Jaime Rosche's interview.

CAMEROTA: And I'm talking about Chad Ludington, and I'm talking about a woman at Yale who drank with him all the time who says that they know he had memory lapses because he couldn't remember the times that he spent with them.

SHAH: Three individuals, I guess, that you are referring to have claims about what he said or didn't do while in college. That is not what the Senate is interested in or asking about. Again, he has gone through six FBI background investigations. All these types of questions get thoroughly investigated throughout one's career. He's been entrusted with some of the most important jobs in government over the last 25 years with a very high-profile career.

[08:10:04] And all the folks that are demanding this type of investigation in the Senate are Democrats who have already pledged to vote no. They don't want additional information to make a decision. They want to delay this process.

CAMEROTA: But the think that it would be helpful for the people who are on the fence to have all of the information. For instance --

SHAH: Alisyn, why don't we ask the people who are actually on the fence, which that he White House has been doing, what they are interested in?

CAMEROTA: And what have Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski told you?

SHAH: They have asked about these specific allegations. They have interviewed -- the White House authorized the FBI to interview certain individuals and then have follow-up interviews. They interviewed, reached out to 10 individuals, comprehensively interviewed nine of them, and that report has been sent to the Senate.

CAMEROTA: Debbie Ramirez is some of the new information. She's the person who says that Brett Kavanaugh exposed himself to her when she was at Yale. She says that she can provide 20 people who can supplement her claims, but that the FBI has not talked to them. Why not follow that thread? Why not try to get to the bottom of it?

SHAH: So, again, I'm limited about what I can say about the investigation. What I can say is this, though. There is an individual who claims to be able to corroborate her story that has spoken extensively to "The New Yorker." This individual says I can corroborate it. But he wasn't there. He has never spoken to Debbie Ramirez. He claims he heard the story secondhand. "The New Yorker" spoke to that individual who supposedly told him he doesn't know about this story. I'm not going out on a limb when I say that's basically an example of hearsay, and that's not worth the FBI's time. So the FBI -- CAMEROTA: Look, again, you've seen more information than we have,

which Debbie Ramirez says that she's given names to people.

SHAH: That's all in "The New Yorker."

CAMEROTA: I understand.

SHAH: Alisyn, what I just told you is all in "The New Yorker." It's in their story. They freely admit it. This person claims to have corroboration. He's demanding to speak to the FBI, but has no direct knowledge, has never spoken to Debbie Ramirez about this.

CAMEROTA: I think you're talking about the person who heard the story in real-time, within 24 hours of it happening.

SHAH: He said within several days, he thinks. So, again, the FBI has trained professionals. We have not micromanaged their process. They did follow-up interviews with people who could have seen firsthand accounts or be able to provide additional information, and they have come up with this supplemental report that has been now sent to the Senate.

CAMEROTA: Understood. So Raj, listen, at best it appears that Judge Kavanaugh misrepresented some of his past drinking to the Senate Judiciary Committee and some of his experiences in high school and college in terms of how --

SHAH: I disagree with that contention, but sure. I'll let you finish.

CAMEROTA: So he, according to now many witnesses, he misrepresented the level to which he drank and his memory issues. At worst, he sexually assaulted someone, as Christine Blasey Ford accuses. Wouldn't it be easier at this point to go with a different nominee who doesn't have any of these problems? You have time before January. Just start over. This process has gotten tainted. Start over and do a more clean process with a different nominee?

SHAH: No. We're not going to do that. The president, the White House are firmly behind Brett Kavanaugh. We believe that all the Senate's questions have been addressed through this supplemental FBI investigation.

And to be clear, allegation -- we cannot live in a world where allegation alone can sully a man's reputation for life. Judge Kavanaugh has expressed his denial firmly, unequivocally, and repeatedly under oath, and Dr. Ford has identified three other individuals who would be able to corroborate her account, and none have been able to do so. All three have said they either have no recollection or don't think it happened.

CAMEROTA: Is it your --

SHAH: No, no. You got to at least let me refute these points.

CAMEROTA: You got it. SHAH: Ms. Ramirez's account to "The New Yorker" only came about after

she had a Democratic connected attorney essentially work with her for six days to get her story in line with what she told "The New Yorker," and "The New York Times" felt that that story essentially wasn't fit to print.

CAMEROTA: As I understand it, I think Debbie Ramirez didn't talk to them, and they wanted to have a source --

SHAH: Alisyn, she had been talking to people just weeks ago, unsure about her account. OK?

CAMEROTA: I understand, but you are making it sound as though she's making something up.

SHAH: I'm saying that when you come forward with a serious accusation like that, they are serious accusations. These things need to be investigated. The Senate offered her an opportunity to speak to them, to walk through the facts and provide additional facts and evidence. She has chosen to speak to the FBI. She has. She provided them with some additional leads. Again, I can't get into too much more information, but I can say that certain potential witnesses were followed up with.

[08:10:00] Nonetheless, what I will say is that the Senate -- the White House didn't micromanage the FBI. The FBI has done what it does. They're trained professionals, and we applaud them for doing their jobs in this background investigation. It's been sent to the Senate. No White House editing. And they will be able to make a clear decision.

CAMEROTA: Last question, Raj. Are the votes there? Does Brett Kavanaugh become confirmed tomorrow?

SHAH: Well, we think that some of the swing senators have asked for this set of information. They're going to review it. And then they're going to come forward with their decision. So we don't necessarily know yet. Obviously, the senators have just begun to review this information, but we feel very confident that we will have the votes.

CAMEROTA: Raj Shah, we appreciate your time. Thank you very much.

SHAH: Thank you so much, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: John?

BERMAN: Raj is right. The senators have just begun, literally, to review this information. For 10 minutes and 40 seconds they have been privy to this FBI investigation. As they read through it, what are they seeing and what does it mean? Stay with us.

BERMAN: Actually, Sunlen Serfaty is live for us on Capitol Hill. It is so breaking, I didn't even know it, Sunlen. Sunlen, give us the process here. SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, John, there

certainly is some highly choreographed protocol that is adding to the drama of this moment up here on Capitol Hill. There is only one physical copy of this FBI report. It now is in a secure location known as the skip up here on Capitol Hill. Over the course of the day, all 100 senators will have access to it in alternating hour. That kicks off at this hour. At this moment Chairman Grassley in there reviewing this document. In the next hour the ranking member Dianne Feinstein will be getting her first look at it.

And already we are seeing Feinstein as well as some other Senate Democrats really casting doubt over this report, questioning its credibility, how credible it could be given the fact that Christine Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh were not interviewed as part of this investigation.

But after all this reading that will happen after the course of today, then it is decision time. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell has set up a cloture vote for Friday. That is when we will hear yes or no for these key undecided senators, those three Republican senators, two Democratic senators, they have said in large part their decision rests on what is in that room today. John?

BERMAN: And they will go in very shortly. Republicans in there already. Sunlen, thank you very much.

Coming up in just a little bit we're going to speak to Democratic Whip Dick Durbin. He will be allowed to see the report very shortly. He has got some serious concerns about what happened, and he put some of the blame on the FBI. We are also going to hear from Brett Kavanaugh's freshman roommate. We heard Raj Shah discuss him, Jaime Roche. Jaime Roche says he is 100 percent sure that Brett Kavanaugh lied under oath.

CAMEROTA: And senators are getting their first chance to see this new FBI report of Brett Kavanaugh as we speak. We'll discuss all of it next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:15:00]

JOHN BERMAN, CNN NEW DAY CO-ANCHOR: All right, the very first Senator has just started reading the FBI's brand new report on Brett Kavanaugh. We just heard from the White House, Principal Deputy Press Secretary Raj Shah on this.

Let's bring in CNN political analyst and USA Today column, Ms. Kirsten Powers. And CNN political commentator Van Jones, host of The Van Jones Show here on CNN. It is decision day in many ways for these Senators, so we'll go and look and look at this report for the first time.

We know that the F.B.I. spoke to nine witnesses. Is that enough, Van? Is that enough? VAN JONES, CNN THE VAN JONES SHOW HOST: No, it's not enough. And I don't think anybody thought we would be able to talk to everybody in the week that we had to get this done.

I still give a big applause to Senator Coons and Senator Flake for at east trying to get something. And it's conceivable, we still don't know that they got something that's going to be -- be the difference maker for some of these Senators.

But I think there's something going on in the country. I think you have a whole generation now with young women and -- and male allies of young women who this is going to be a defining fight for them.

And it's going to propel them not just in to November, but 2020 and beyond because they see a huge disconnect between how seriously they take these allegations and the way that people who run Washington D.C. apparently take them.

And you now have from their point of view an admitted sexual predator, the president putting an accused sexual predator on the Supreme Court in a rush vote when Merit Garland was held up for almost a year.

And this is going to be a a watershed for a generation.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN NEW DAY ANCHOR: I think that the silver lining as Kirsten and I have discussed, as I think John and I have discussed, is that we're having all of these conversations is that people like you Kirsten are able to come forward and be believed and tell their stories about sexual assault.

That is a fee change, OK? Something is happening in this country. But in terms of this moment, this exact moment as Senators are reading through the F.B.I. report, it's obvious they've left information on the table.

It's obvious there's more information out there. So many people have said I have relevant information but the -- I can't get in touch with the F.B.I., I'm trying. And they're not trying to find me. And will that be good enough for Senators today.

KIRSTEN POWERS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I don't think there's any question that this is not a real investigation. You can't have people coming forward and saying I heard about this real-time and they're not being contacted.

You can't have Deborah Ramirez saying I have all these people who can corroborate it and they're not being contacted. And I think thus has become sort of a proxy for a bigger argument in the country.

And I think that republicans, the reason they're son committed to putting him on the court is because they are so committed to this idea that they're not going to allow women to come forward and make accusations against men and have them taken seriously. I really think that that's what's happening here.

And because nobody's really asking -- I have to say, I don't want to hear anymore about the both sides thing, OK? It is not a both sides thing. Alisyn, you've known me for a ling time. I have no problem criticizing democrats, zero.

And--

CAMEROTA: True.

POWERS: This is absolutely not a both sides situation. Now, are there some democrats who are behaving in a partisan manner? Absolutely, shocked, we're just shocked that's happening.

But most people are just simply saying, do a real F.B.I. investigation, look in to this. If he is innocent, clear his name. And if he's not, he shouldn't be on the Supreme Court-

CAMEROTA: But the Rick Santorum argument about both sides is that -- I mean, what he foes back to is that the original sin-

POWERS: That's ridiculous.

CAMEROTA: In terms of the investigation started with Dianne Feinstein, that she shouldn't have said on the letter-

POWERS: Oh, right, right--

CAMEROTA: Let me just play it out for you. That she shouldn't have said on the letter, and -- or she should've privately shared with the F.B.I.-

POWERS: No, I know the argument.

CAMEROTA: That the investigation could've started earlier though.

POWERS: OK, right. So in this alternate universe, that would've happened and the republicans would've been open to this and said oh my gosh, thank you so much for coming forward and making this accusation against Brett Kavanaugh.

We're going to take it so seriously -- no.

[08:20:00]

They would say this is exactly what they've been saying which is basically -- this is plot to keep him off the Court and this is Democrats do, they just make up allegations and try to smear people.

I mean I'm sorry I just reject the idea that they would've been absolutely open to this because of their behavior. They literally -- they're just in an alternate universe. Even this talking point about he's had six FBI investigations.

Do you know who had a security clearance? Denny Hastert, the Speaker of the House. OK. They didn't find out that he was molesting child, so please stop with this -- he has security clearances and so therefore we know this didn't happen. That's ridiculous. Please stop with the -- he didn't lie under oath. We all saw it on

simple things like claiming he doesn't know who Bart is in the book. Well you need to go and ask Judge -- Mark Judge about it because he just doesn't know it and then there's a letter of him signing his name. Very simple things and you have people, literally Rick Santorum, who supported impeachment over one lie under oath over a non-crime.

And when you have repeated lies from Brett Kavanaugh and we're told none of this really matter, we don't need to get to the bottom of it, we don't need to investigate anything about his drinking because he may have lied about it under oath.

And the other thing I was so say is -- I had a few beers, is not the same thing as admitting that you got so drunk that you puked all the time. Not from your delicate little tummy, but from actually from drinking too much, as he put in his letter that he signed.

BERMAN: Interesting because Rick Santorum felt so strongly that this is about the process not the claim from Professor Ford.

POWERS: Ridiculous.

BERMAN: Which he apologized for I do want to note that Senator Santorum apologized for, but it does speak to a passion that exists now from supporters of the President and the Republican Party, and the President just wrote about this and I want to get your take on this, Van.

The President says the harsh and unfair treatment of Judge Brett Kavanaugh is having an incredible upward impact on voters. The people get it far better than the politicians. Most importantly, his great life cannot be ruined by mean and despicable Democrats and totally uncorroborated allegations.

You said that this will be watershed moment -- a defining moment for some voters, and you meant I think, women voters and democratic leaning voters. Republicans pollsters and some democratic strategist have told me just this morning, they're seeing at least right now, a bounce for the Republic's on this issue.

JONES: Look, I think that you can have something of an equal and opposite reaction. Here's the tragedy, though. Is there an argument to make for fair process and due process and all that kind of stuff?

Absolutely.

We're a fair country where these things matter, but the President, unfortunately, is the worst possible person to suddenly become a convert to the idea of due process for the accused. When it was Central Park jogger -- a jogger case in Central Park five (ph), he wanted the death penalty with no facts. It turned out the people he wanted to put to death were innocent and he's never gone back and said guess what, those falsely accused guys -- those guys were innocent and I'm sorry. When it comes to Muslims, when it comes to immigrants he is willing to

throw entire groups under the bus aggressively and smear entire groups based on the acts of a few. He is no process for due. He's no champion for due process. He's no champion for fair treatment of the accused at all.

He's snatching babies from moms and so for him suddenly now to become his huge champion of the rights of defendant, the rights of the accused is very, very suspect when if in fact, those who are accused are -- have brown skin or black skin or pray differently, he doesn't care at all.

And so, yes, is there a case to be made? Somebody might need to make that case. We need to make sure that we're look at all sides of this, but he is the worst possible person to bring it forward and it just underscores the challenge we have in this country.

CAMEROTA: Van Jones, Kirsten Powers, I think we're out of time. I could be wrong. OK, we're out of time. Thank you both very much and you can catch THE VAN JONES SHOW Saturday night at 7 PM Eastern right here on CNN with Dave Chappelle, Maryland gubernatorial (ph) candidate Ben Jealous, and Neil deGrasse Tyson. You guys are having too much fun, Van, stop it.

BERMAN: And a live studio audience that laughs at all of Van's jokes.

JONES: Hey listen, you've got to have some fun in this crazy world right now.

BERMAN: Right. Thanks to Van and thanks to Kirsten, as well.

Senators they just started reading the FBI report on Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh. We're going to speak to a key Democrat who will get his chance to see the report very shortly.

(COMMERCIAL)

[08:25:00]

CAMEROTA: Vice President Mike Pence is about to severely escalate the war of words with China. This is far from the only thing happening with China that you probably have not heard about, but likely, Senior Political Analyst John Avlon has it all for us in our reality check. Hi, John.

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: That's right, Ally. So later this morning, Vice President Pence will throw a rhetorical brush back pitch to the Chinese, blasting their expansionist agenda, cyber information warfare and even taking on China's treatment of Taiwan, a historical redline few American officials have dared to cross.

And it all comes on the heels of this incident. That's a Chinese warship essentially cutting off the U.S.S. Decatur in the South China Sea. Now the captain of the American destroyer had to throw it in reverse and turn sharply to avoid a collision, for a time that two ships were about 45 yards apart. Now the U.S. has been conducting freedom of navigation exercise in the South China Sea, ever since the Chinese claimed a series of contested islands in international waters and began to put military installations on them.

China's not been shy about its expansionist ambitions, and last month, it embarked on its first large-scale joint-naval drills with Russia. But this is hardly the only front in the looming cold war between the U.S. and China.

Now that Trump has inked the U.S.-Mexico-Canada trade agreement, he's free to focus his trade war energy on, entirely, on China. Trumps $250 billion in tariffs against China are design to shrink a massive trade deficit, protect U.S. intellectual property and reset the relationship while we still have leverage.

Now economists point out that trade wars are not, in fact, "good and easy to win," as the president once said, and the American people agreed. But a growing number of surveys suggest that tide is turning, particularly among Republicans.

[08:30:00]