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CRIME AND JUSTICE WITH ASHLEIGH BANFIELD

Hunt For Missing Girl, After Parents Killed; Murder In Paradise. Aired 6-8p ET

Aired October 23, 2018 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(JOINED IN PROGRESS)

[18:00:00] HILL HARPER, HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED SHOW HOST: Thanks for watching, I`m Hill Harper. Good night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The face of deep sadness and fear. We will overcome.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The search for a missing girl grows 20 times in size.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have faith.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because it`s been over a week since 13-year-old Jayme Closs vanished. And she disappeared from the house where both of her

parents were shot dead.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is really frightening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t know this family at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So why didn`t the neighbors call 911 as soon as they heard the shots?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We heard the first shot followed just a couple seconds by the second shot. Bang and bang.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What dark clues could come from the cars that were spotted near the scene?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had our experts pour over hours of video from homes and from businesses.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And why is the sheriff asking locals to look again at everyone around them?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look for changes in behavior or routine of people. Either they don`t drive them anymore, they change their routine on what

they drive or where they drive.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Plus, a killer mystery at club med. How did a loving New York lawyer wind up dead in the bushes? In one of the most pristine

places on earth and what makes police think she was murdered?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Emotionally, I`ve been through a huge amount.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His own family accuses him of gunning down his grandpa just so he could take all his millions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I had no idea who killed my grandfather. I know that I did not.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But he is pointing to the woman he calls grandpa`s mistress. Did the 87-year-old victim really buy the young woman a boob

job? And is it possible she murdered him for more? Or is this just a shady red herring, from a kid whose own family doesn`t trust him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re done for this evening, period.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Especially after his own mother`s mysterious death.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no relationship between my having -- the last person other than the killer, to see my grandfather alive, and my having

been on the boat with my mother when it sank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ASHLEIGH BANFIELD, HOST, HLN CRIME AND JUSTICE: Good evening, everyone, I`m Ashleigh Banfield, this is "Crime and Justice." Losing your parents is

bad enough especially if they are shot dead in front of you. But police fear that a 13-year-old girl is in grave danger tonight after vanishing

from her home just minutes after she became an orphan. And we`re learning more haunting details about that night. And the bloody crime scene that

was left behind. As thousands of volunteers pour into the woods of the farmland all around that house, in search of Jayme Closs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you here?

JENNY WEBER, VOLUNTEER SEARCHER: Because I can, and I`m able. And there`s a little girl missing. If she was mine, I`d want the world looking for

her. So I`m able to be here.

BANFIELD: She and others like her have been told they may get dirty while searching for the evidence, any evidence about her whereabouts. And

they`ve been asked to wear hard soled shoes, but they`ve also been asked to show some I.D. something we do every day for a variety of mundane reasons.

But at this search site in rural Wisconsin, well, that request just might have a much darker meaning. It might mean that police actually want to

keep track of all the locals who come to the crime scene, especially if one or more of them is coming back to the crime scene, or if one or more of

them know the answer to who took Jayme and who killed Jayme`s parents. I want to start with Barron County Sheriff, Chris Fitzgerald, who joins me

for a third night now. Sheriff, I wish that we could meet under different circumstances. Have you made any headway since we spoke last night?

CHRIS FITZGERALD, SHERIFF, BARRON COUNTY SHERIFF`S DEPARTMENT: No, we continue to follow up on leads. We received several hundred more leads

today. We`re into the 1400s leads and, you know, so far the search is continuing as we speak. But no items were recovered, but nothing of

evidentiary value that tied to the Closs case.

BANFIELD: So that would be my next question. You had requested 2,000 searchers come out to volunteer, to help dig, prod and poke through these

grasses and these woods all around the Closs home and the surrounding area. Nothing, it`s yielded literally nothing 24 hours later?

FITZGERALD: I know, like I said, they`re still out now, and I was briefed early this afternoon by our evidence team. And they had recovered items,

what people thought might be evidence items and they are going to review those items. And don`t believe they are tied to the case.

[18:05:00] BANFIELD: Sir, if I can see the searchers obviously were given these orange flags. I`m only assuming that is from the authorities to just

stake out whatever they`re curious about, but do not touch. Is that correct?

FITZGERALD: That is correct. An evidence team was sent, a law enforcement officer was sent with each team. So, if they found something, they would

not touch it, and then the law enforcement officer would take those items and process them as evidence.

BANFIELD: Can I just ask you, how many items were flagged? How many do they have to process, how many items had yielded nothing, no clues?

FITZGERALD: Yes, I don`t have that number, they`re still out in the field. And all I was told -- our evidence team didn`t have that number. There`s

four different evidence teams out in the field.

BANFIELD: All right. The day is not over yet, and clearly you had a really good turnout. Just what the pictures we are seeing. Did you think

you reached that 2,000 goal -- of 2,000 searchers out there?

FITZGERALD: You know, I thought in my heart we would. I just know it`s a Tuesday and the world operates around us, and we understand that. But I

was very happy, and a lot of hope was put back into the law enforcement efforts today, because of all of that effort knowing that there`s over

2,000 people behind them.

BANFIELD: Well, you know, 2,000 is a high bar. There`s only 3,000 plus in this town. So it`s 2/3 of the town. Of course, people are coming from

other areas. I`m going to go through rapid fire questions if I may. We`ll try to cover as much ground as we can, Sheriff. And I completely

understand when you can`t touch certain territory. But I will go there anywhere just in case.

FITZGERALD: Yes.

BANFIELD: Are you looking for more than one perpetrator?

FITZGERALD: We don`t know the answer to that and that I admit at least.

BANFIELD: Have you gone through all of the gas station and truck stops along every route that radiates from Jayme`s property?

FITZGERALD: We have reviewed all of the current video that we have from all those locations and for some reason we`ve missed somebody, which I

don`t believe we have. We have done a neighborhood canvas, we have an alert system. We sent out and we stopped at every business along those

routes. So, yes that is all been covered.

BANFIELD: So, those gas stations, those truck stops, they have to get gas, they have to get food, and just about every single one of them, if not

everyone has surveillance. You feel you`ve covered every one of those stops?

FITZGERALD: Yes, I`m very happy with our surveillance team, and the team built around that effort. And they continue to review that video to make

sure they didn`t miss anything. We put fresh eyes on that. Different and new people when we continue to do that video as we speak.

BANFIELD: All right. What about Walmart`s and drugstores. You know, we have covered missing children before who have turned up, but not before

showing up on surveillance videos in Walmart`s where perhaps they`re buying hair dye or they are trying to alter the appearance of the child. Has that

yielded anything?

FITZGERALD: It has not yielded anything. And yes, we`ve covered what we believe is every piece of evidence that we can come across or we believe

they might have gone, like you`re saying.

BANFIELD: Any campgrounds in the vicinity. We`ve also covered cases where children have turned up in campgrounds.

FITZGERALD: Our patrol division has reviewed -- you know, went through it. All of our campgrounds are closed due to water freezing. It gets very cold

here at night now. But we have patrolled -- our patrol division is out checking abandoned cars, you know, other things like that, and has produced

nothing.

BANFIELD: I think Elizabeth Thomas was found in a wooded area with an abandoned cabin. Are there any vacation cabins, any vacation areas that

obviously are out of season that you`ve been able to canvas as well?

FITZGERALD: Yes, we`ve had a lot of people call in saying, you know, I`ve closed my house up, but feel free to go check it. Or I have an abandoned

property that you know, we`re fixing up, feel free to check it. That is why we`re asking for the public`s help. And the public has, you know, like

I said, those would be tips, we would follow up on that with our investigative teams. And you know, we`re over 1400 tips, which is a large

number of tips.

BANFIELD: Have you also canvassed through the trucking community? All of those truck drivers that fan all those roads, are they on the lookout for

those suspect vehicles that you put out yesterday?

FITZGERALD: Yes, I`ve been on trucking radio, I had been at gas stations, on billboards, yes, all of that has been covered to bring Jayme home.

BANFIELD: It`s just absolutely confounding that you have fanned out over all of the necessary channels, the obvious channels. What about ATM`s and

banks. I mean, these people can`t get far. They have to live in this society. It takes money, gas and food. They have to stop somewhere. Any

banks, any ATM`s yield any surveillance video that is questionable.

FITZGERALD: Our surveillance team has -- you know as we said, we would release it from the podium or from me. We released the video that we have,

or you know, the suspect vehicles, suspect persons of interest. They`re not suspects, let me correct that. You know, the person of interest. And

that is the only, you know, thing we`ve asked the community to do.

[18:10:00] Because that is what we have to share with the community to help us. We know the community wants to help us, and the community will be the

first to know when we have a suspect or a different vehicle or something else that we want help with. Because we have so many people out there

wanting to help and bring Jayme home.

BANFIELD: Sheriff, we just put those vehicles up there. We will show them up again. Because I have a question about the vehicles in question. One

is -- vehicle number one is likely a 2008 `14 Dodge Challenger, red or orange. And there`s the images that you want people to take a look at. To

char their memory. The second vehicle in question, likely a 2006 to `10 black Ford Edge. But it also could be a 2004 to `10 black Acura MDX. So,

regarding those vehicles, you and I talked last night, you said you couldn`t get any license plate information regarding the, you know,

releasing this information, but plate readers are often brought into investigations like that, is that just out of the realm of possibility

right now? A, because Barron is so rural, but also because we don`t know what plate to look for?

FITZGERALD: Yes. We don`t have a license plate number or we would definitely share that with the media and the public, because like I said,

we have thousands and thousands of people that are helping us with this case. You know, after today -- a day like today, it`s been just

tremendous. And the effort there. And I just don`t have -- I wish we had a license plate.

BANFIELD: So, Sheriff, often, you know, when crime is this violent and this unbelievable, typically, the first suspects are from the deep

underworld, and in places like Chicago and Los Angeles and New York and Boston and large cities, and authorities would go to the underworld. They

would go to their contacts, to their drug dealers, to the people who they know if they squeezed, they might get information. I don`t know how it

works in a place like Barron, it`s a small town, but it is not a drug free town. Nowhere in America is. Have you been able to mine those particular

resources?

FITZGERALD: Yes, we`ve reached out, we have a drug unit, and we have a large meth problem in our area. And we put the word out on the street.

We`ve worked our contacts, we worked -- yes, I -- yes, that is been done.

BANFIELD: I`m only assuming that you and your other authorities, you`re other counterparts in the FBI, and you know, in the local bureau are

feeling fairly confounded by this, because these things usually yield something. They give some kind of a lead. Do you truly feel that you

haven`t had a lead at all from these typical avenues?

FITZGERALD: No, because I think we have the vehicles. I think we have other things that keep us going, and we know -- somebody knows something

out there as you stated. And we believe we will find that person or persons that know something about this case or have information. Or

something they`re just not thinking about, that is why we continue to push the changes in behavior, changes in driving habits. Something different

out there, across the nation.

BANFIELD: Any little bit of information helps. The last we spoke, we also talked about the electronic trail. Every teenager has one, even if they

don`t have his or her own phone. A teenager has an electronic trail of some kind. Can you tell me what you`ve been able to ascertain from that

home, from Jayme`s electronic belongings, from whatever she left behind in the home, whatever may have gone out of the home. What may be trackable?

Does she have an apple watch? Do you know if she has her phone? Have you been able to dig into her social media? Where are you in that picture?

FITZGERALD: Currently active, and we won`t comment on that, but I assure you that team is working around the clock on those avenues that you`re

speaking about.

BANFIELD: So far, sheriff, has that been helpful?

FITZGERALD: It`s -- it can lead to some leads and you know, some become closed out leads, but yes, leads get developed from information like that,

and we continue to follow those leads, and like I said, we have about 200 open leads, and we continue to have local law enforcement, both our state

and federal law enforcement investigative teams follow up on those.

BANFIELD: So at 200 open leads would leave me to believe you have 1100 closed leads then? Because I think you said 1300 have come in? Is that

right?

FITZGERALD: Yes, we`re over 1400 about 1183 in closed leads. Yes, so we have 200 open leads. And like I said, my back parking lot is empty. That

means our teams are out closing out more of those leads. Looking into those leads and maybe we`ll come up with something.

BANFIELD: That is at least promising to know that you`ve been able to get through all of those. Would it be fair to say Sheriff that a solid number

of those leads that you`ve been chasing have come from the electronic trail?

FITZGERALD: I wouldn`t know the answer to that. But some of those have come from that, yes.

BANFIELD: Some of the leads have come from Jayme`s particular social media trail?

[18:15:04] FITZGERALD: Oh, oh. All family members.

BANFIELD: All family members, social media trail. Have the electronic trails of Jayme`s parents been fruitful, in terms of trying to get a

direction as to where you`re going with this crime?

FITZGERALD: Yes, I can`t comment on that, I won`t -- like I said all along, we won`t -- you know, share that information unless it becomes like

we need to release it to the public so they can help us.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you, when does this investigation start to shift into another mode?

FITZGERALD: Shift into what, I`m sorry?

BANFIELD: When does this investigation begin to shift into another mode? We are now a week out.

FITZGERALD: We haven`t let the gas off yet, and we don`t have a plan to let off the gas on this case. And we will bring Jayme home.

BANFIELD: Can you tell me, just speaking of her home, was there evidence of a struggle in the home?

FITZGERALD: I can`t comment on that.

BANFIELD: Is there anything more you can tell me about the home? I mean, last night you took me to the front door, where we saw the feet of James

Closs. That is what the first investigator saw through the open door. What about Denise?

FITZGERALD: I can`t comment on her whereabouts in the residence as part of the active case?

BANFIELD: Can you tell me if their autopsies yielded anything in particular, out of the ordinary?

FITZGERALD: I can tell you what we released and that is that they died of gunshot wounds.

BANFIELD: Is there anything more to the way they died?

FITZGERALD: I don`t think I can -- I don`t think we`ve released anything like that or you know, -- other than they just died of gunshot wounds.

BANFIELD: So, I`m going to ask you if you would do me a favor sheriff, and I`m not sure if this is going to be helpful or not. I think it may be.

FITZGERALD: OK.

BANFIELD: We put these shows together right up until the minute I sit down and sign on and I am not kidding you. I have some notes that one of our

phenomenal producers has just handed me. She is been also speaking with one of the witnesses in the case, I`m sure that you have spoken with Joan

Smrekar, one of the neighbors who heard the gunshots? Is that correct, Sir?

FITZGERALD: I believe I don`t know the answer of every person that is been interviewed. So, but I`m sure if she is been part of this, she is been

interviewed.

BANFIELD: It`s the collective you, I didn`t mean to put you on the spot. Certainly she is been questioned by police as well, as to what she -- as an

ear witness could yield. She is joining me live now as well. Sheriff, if I can, I want to bring the two of you together. Joan, can you hear me?

JOAN SMREKAR, CLOSS` NEIGHBOR: Yes, I can.

BANFIELD: Joan, thank you for coming back on the program. When we spoke last week, you sort of broke news on this program, that you had heard two

shots, just a couple of seconds apart. Just after -- I think you said it was just after 12:00 midnight, correct?

SMREKAR: Correct.

BANFIELD: And have you been able to sort of think back to the preceding moments and the proceeding moments, the before and after as to how quiet

everything was if there had been other shots? Would you have heard them? Have you been able to think through that at all? Or have you ascertained

anything different since we first spoke?

SMREKAR: Knowing the door was kicked in. Probably the reason that shots sounded differently to us, it was just too loud and too close. But if

there were other shots, we did not hear any of them. We just heard the two about 12:31.

BANFIELD: And when you say too loud and too close. You mean, there were two loud gunshots, and they were close together, just a couple seconds

apart, correct?

SMREKAR: That is correct.

BANFIELD: All right. This is where I think the sheriff is going to be interested in what you have to say, if his deputies haven`t already heard

this. But bare with me. Joan, the newest information in the case came out yesterday, and it was the descriptions of the vehicles that police are

tracking. And I`m going to ask our producers to put those -- the red vehicle up on the screen if we can. The description that was put out for

vehicle number one Joan was likely a 2008 to 2014 Dodge challenger, red or orange in color. You`ve just told our Beth Carrie here at "Crime and

Justice" that you think you may have seen this vehicle?

SMREKAR: I`ve seen a vehicle like that in Barron several times, and last night -- it`s not fair to say this is the vehicle, get someone in trouble.

But there was one parked in the Jenny O`s parking lot last night that resembled that picture.

BANFIELD: And what parking lot was that, Joan? Can you be specific? I am not sure I recognized the name but maybe the Sheriff will.

SMREKAR: Well, it was the Jenny O turkey store.

BANFIELD: Sheriff, do you recognize that parking lot?

SMREKAR: Yes, we received that tip. Jenny is where both Denise and James worked. That is a correct statement, that tip was followed up on, and that

person was cleared.

[18:20:04] BANFIELD: So the person who might have been at that parking lot last night, that has already been cleared. Because that is what Joan was

saying, that she was at an event last night and saw what looked like that vehicle in the parking lot last night.

FITZGERALD: That is correct. That vehicle was parked in that parking lot. And an employee of Jenny O has that vehicle, but that is not the correct

vehicle?

BANFIELD: Is it the one with the black stripe?

FITZGERALD: I don`t know what the vehicle looked like, but our investigative team did close that out.

BANFIELD: That is been closed out. That is so difficult. And Joan, is there anything else that jogged your memory since we spoke as well, with

the information that is been released since we spoke.

SMREKAR: We heard very little perks in all of this. We heard the two shots, and we just thought they were unusual, we did not call, in because

we`re used to hearing gunshots around here, people hunting or -- we thought maybe someone was chasing a bear out of their yard. And I wish I would

have called to have it checked out. I really do.

BANFIELD: Well, you know, you and I had this conversation a week ago, you said the same thing to me a week ago, and frankly, Joan, the place where

you live, it wouldn`t have been odd, so please don`t think for a minute that you`ve done anything wrong. That you haven`t done anything just out

of the ordinary. It`s a rural place, and those sounds happen, and that is not unusual. Joan, I`m going to let you go, thank you very much. Sheriff,

stay with me if you will. Because I actually want to bring our Ryan Young into the conversation, he is our CNN correspondent, who is on location as

well.

You just never know with all of the information that is coming in at real- time. Ryan, you were able to hear Joan Smrekar and her conversation with us. About the vehicle that was spotted last night, the fact that it`s

already been cleared, not even 24 hours later, by the sheriff. And then you heard the string of questions that the sheriff and I just sort of

ticked through. This is so confounding. I`m just wondering on the ground there, if you`re feeling the same vexing feeling that it seems like a dead-

end every time you turn around.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are in Chicago, but we`ve talked to people around that area, and the one thing that stood out to us, and it

seems like the same thing that stood out to the sheriff, is the idea that so many people wanted to be involved in this, and that they went out there

today to be a part of that search. You get 2,000 people or close to 2,000 people to go out and be a part of this search, it really stands out to you.

When you think about how nerve-wracking this could be for such a small community.

You describe some of the crime stories over the last year, this sounds completely different, two parents being killed in their home, a child

missing. I think this really has touched a lot of people. One thing I gathered, not only from what the Sheriff has been saying and something we

had seen, it seems they`ve not left any stone unturned. Not only doing billboards, but getting the word out to the community. And then you

actually have that visual that happened last night. And when you think about the impact of this, this is really getting a lot of people to pay

attention across the country. There`s really high interest in this, and as you know, putting that vehicle description out there, putting the 1-800

number out there, and getting this out as much as possible. Can be a force multiplier for police and law enforcement, who seem like they`re doing the

best they can.

BANFIELD: Sometimes it`s hard to track who`s coming in and out of the story. My apologies, Ryan, I know you are at Chicago, we have

correspondents coming in to the story and then going back to base, this is the place where you`re really the collection point for so much of the video

that we are seeing as well, and the developments too. This story isn`t -- it seems like a local story for everyone. I can only imagine as close as

you are to it, but it feels like it`s also a Chicago story.

YOUNG: Well, you just know that in terms of like the conversation, especially somewhere near the Midwest. To think about Wisconsin, you don`t

think about stories like this, and the idea that a young girl like this could be abducted or something would happen to her. And you put the

description out on these vehicles. I think one of the things that the sheriff talked about that really stood out to me, is the idea that they

have that video surveillance team, out there, stitching together the video from different places, and we know from other cases just recently, that

video from people`s homes can really turn some of these cases around. You think back to Molly Tibbets, you think about the idea that someone had a

camera on the car, and that sort of focused everyone`s eyes on the suspect.

BANFIELD: Ryan, thanks for the work that you`re doing on this. Sheriff Chris Fitzgerald, Sheriff, I hope we speak again, and there`s more news and

better news the next time we speak. God speed to everybody out there who`s doing all of this work. Thank you. And my thanks to Joan Smrekar as well.

A dream vacation takes a nightmarish turn when a New York mom is found dead at club med.

[18:25:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It`s the kind of trip that sounds just perfect this time of year, when the weather starts getting cold. Let`s be real, it sounds

perfect any time of year. A vacation to the (inaudible) to an all- inclusive resorts just steps from one of the most pristine beaches on the planet. But just steps from that world renounce beach is where Marie was

found in the bushes, dead. After disappearing overnight. And authorities down in that Caribbean paradise are still trying to figure out what

happened to Marie. That they`re calling Marie`s case without question a murder investigation.

With me now live, Eileen Lehpamer. She is a criminal justice reporter for CNN affiliate News 12 Long Island. Also with me, retired detective and

forensic specialist Karen Smith and trial attorney Randy Kessler.

Eileen, let me begin with you. It sounds as though Marie Kuhnla was on a typical Club Med vacation, the all-inclusive resort with two of her

friends, but how did she go missing?

EILEEN LEHPAMER, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE NEWS 12 LONG ISLAND (via telephone): Well, that`s what we`re still trying to find out. Even her

family is still trying to find that out. Today, I spoke with Marie`s brother, who said they`re not getting a lot of answers at all.

She did go on a vacation described as a girls vacation with one of her co- workers, another friend and that friend`s daughter, so four women from Long Island down at that Club Med.

The brother tells me they did try to report her missing on Sunday, and they were told they had to wait 24 hours. They reported her missing on Monday,

and it wasn`t until the next morning that her body was found in the bushes. At this point --

BANFIELD: What`s so strange about this, Eileen, what`s so bizarre, I get it, if you go out walking on the beach at night in any foreign country,

that`s a dangerous proposition. But it sounds to me that`s not necessarily what happened.

It looks as though she was last seen on her way to her hotel room at 6:00 at night. That`s almost like after the beach day wraps up, and you`re

saying good-bye to your friends to go and shower off and get ready for dinner.

That was the last time she was seen, but they didn`t find her body until the next morning. Does anyone know anything about what happened after Marie

presumably sort of left her pals as the sun was going down on the beach?

LEHPAMER (via telephone): Yeah, it was actually 48 hours, because she went missing on Sunday. The friends said they started to look for her, tried to

report it to the authorities, and then some of the local people there started to look for her. And then 24 hours later, police launched their

investigation and found her Tuesday morning.

BANFIELD: Any idea how she died?

LEHPAMER (via telephone): No. At this point, the family did say they did an autopsy late last week. And they are awaiting those results. Again, the

brother telling me he feels really frustrated at this point because they can`t even get those answers.

BANFIELD: Here`s a question that will sound strange, but I think it will yield a lot of clues. Do they know what she was wearing when she was found?

LEHPAMER (via telephone): No, the brother says he had not been able to even get that information, so I do not know that at this point.

BANFIELD: I want to bring in Karen Smith, a retired detective. I asked that question because if she was in her bathing suit, she probably never

made it back at 6:00 from that day in the sun. It would be a critical piece of information. But here`s the question I have for you.

You`re good at what you do. You have always been good at what you do. As a forensic specialist, you know what you`re looking for. Do people in the

island have the same kind of skills? Do they work as hard at these cases? Do they have the resources that say we would have here in America?

KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The keyword is resources, Ashleigh. You know, some of these smaller islands are not

going to have the resources that we have here, especially in L.A., in New York, in Orlando, some of these larger places.

They`re going to be dealing with very rudimentary tools most of the time. I don`t know what their budget looks like. Normally, budgets are spent on

patrol. They`re not going to be spent on the forensic unit. We`ve always been the black sheep. We always will be. And unfortunately that`s sort of

how it goes.

I see they`re wearing tie-back suits. They know how to handle a crime scene. Whether or not they have the technical expertise to go in and look

for these minute details, I really don`t know.

BANFIELD: Yeah. They`re not releasing a lot of information. I will say this, Club Med has told us they are cooperating in all of this. They`re

cooperating in the investigation. But I want to read something I found really surprising. I did not expect this.

I`ve been to the Turks and Caicos. It is spectacular. It doesn`t the least bit feel dangerous there. But if you check with the United States State

Department, there`s a travel advisory that actually was just issued in January for the Turks and Caicos.

Exercise caution. And let me read. Exercise increased caution in the Turks and Caicos Islands due to crime. Violent crimes such as armed robbery,

shootings and home invasions is common. Police presence and emergency response are extremely limited. Avoid walking alone at night. Do not answer

your door at your hotel residence unless you know who it is. Do not physically resist any robbery attempt.

And Randy Kessler, they have a number. They have a level. And Turks and Caicos is at a level two. Places like Aruba, Bermuda, St. Kitts, St. Lucia,

The Cayman Islands, St. Martin are all at a level one. Not as dangerous. Does that mean that you waste (ph) your money, you take your chances and if

something happens when you`re there, god speed?

[18:34:58] RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: No, I mean, the United States government is always going to air on the side of caution, be safe. Those

are just good advisories for any country. In fact, in America, there is a lot of good advice to not do that kind of not resist robbery.

But you know what, that`s what it`s there for, we should pay attention to what the State Department puts out. I don`t know why they`re not releasing

details. I don`t think it`s because of PR and they want good PR.

I think that they know something, that if it got out publicly, then the witness`s testimony would not be as valuable. Somebody knows something.

Somebody told them something. They saw something. They want to find independent evidence to corroborate.

BANFIELD: Well, stay with me, if you will, and my thanks to Eileen Lehpamer for her reporting on this. Sex, money, and murder. Nathan Carman`s

own aunties believe that he`s responsible for his grandfather`s mysterious death.

But tonight, he is offering a brand new theory, saying someone else might be responsible for the 87-year-old millionaire`s killing, and that someone,

he says, is his grandfather`s 25-year-old mistress.

[18:40:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Some families are plagued by death. And tragedy after tragedy takes loved ones off of the family tree. But at some point, too many

tragedies seem a little suspicious.

Some of Nathan Carman`s family members don`t think that it`s just a coincidence that he lost his mom and his grandfather, because that

grandfather was found dead in his home of a gunshot wound that matches a rifle that Nathan had apparently purchased.

Oh, by the way, grandpa was really rich, like a real estate tycoon. Allegedly had millions to give away in inheritance if he died. And since

Nathan was reportedly the last person to see his grandfather the night that he died, well, Nathan seemed to be maybe one of the prime suspects, at

least to his family members who find him less than honest.

Family members who became even more suspicious when he took his mom on a fishing trip a few years later. The only person standing between Nathan and

all of that inheritance from grandpa would be mom. And the only person who did not come back from that trip was mom.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Hello, this is Nathan Carman.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Nathan, this is United States Coast Guard Boston. I need to understand what happened. Over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): Mom and I, two people. Myself and my mom, were fishing near Block Canyon. There was a funny noise in the engine

compartment. I looked and saw a lot of water. When I saw the life raft, I did not see my mom. Have you found her?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): No, we have not been able to find her yet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BANFIELD: There has never been any concrete evidence that Nathan caused his mom`s death or disappearance for that matter, or there`s never been any

evidence that he gunned down his grandfather either. There`s also never been another suggestion for who killed the man with all the money, until

now.

Because after saying he had no idea who could have killed his grandfather, Nathan is now pointing at somebody else, for his family and for the courts

to consider. Somebody else who was getting money from grandpa. And just about the same age as Nathan too. The 25-year-old woman who was supposedly

his grandfather`s mistress. You heard right.

With me now, James Walsh. He is a New York magazine reporter, the author of "Playing Against the House: The Dramatic World of an Undercover Union

Organizer." He`s been covering this story for months and months, and I think you`re about to come out with something big in the offings, aren`t

you? You`ve been collecting material as we`ve gone along in this case.

The case takes a different turn it seems every couple weeks to a month. And now this. All of a sudden, we`re hearing about a 25-year-old mistress who`s

with an 87-year-old grandpa. If I`m doing the math, that`s 62 years between them. Why didn`t we hear about this before? Why didn`t Nathan say something

about her before, if he truly believes she might have something to do with it?

JAMES WALSH, REPORTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: There`s a lot of reasons that Nathan, you know, would have held on to this information or maybe didn`t

have the opportunity to put it out there.

But I think if we really look closely and zoom in at this new revelation, it sort of, you know, doesn`t really stand up to muster. I do think, you

know, it`s worth looking into. But the thing is, we know that police did look into this. Police did interview "Mistress Y" as she`s called in the

court documents.

BANFIELD: "Mistress Y" as in the letter "Y"?

WALSH: "Mistress Y," the letter "Y."

BANFIELD: They`re keeping her identity close to their vest.

[18:45:01] WALSH: Correct.

BANFIELD: But she`s 25.

WALSH: Reportedly 25.

BANFIELD: Have the police at least let on through court documents? At least do we know that this really is a relationship?

WALSH: Yes. You know, apparently, Grandpa Chakalos paid for breast enhancement, $3500 breast enhancement.

BANFIELD: Nathan is saying he gave her all sorts of money, I think in the hundreds, $800 at the time, I`m reading. These are Nathan`s allegations in

court documents because like I said, this case has taken so many turns.

There`s the missing mother, there`s the boat trip that went awry, there`s the insurance money for the boat is a court case, the reaction from his

aunties saying he should never get the inheritance. He is not a suspect in either of these disappearance deaths, right?

WALSH: Well, no, he`s the primary suspect.

BANFIELD: He`s not been named a suspect by the police, correct?

WALSH: He`s been named the primary.

BANFIELD: Sorry, he`s not been charged. That should be more --

WALSH: He`s not been charged, yes.

BANFIELD: I`m sorry. Pardon me. He`s not been charged with anything. And they continue to look at him. If you think that he sounded odd, I`m going

to play for you the moment where he said he had nothing to do with the deaths, because there`s a demeanor here that might make people, you know,

tilt their head and wonder. I want you to just take a look at it, and I`ll ask you something on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea who killed my grandfather. I know that I did not. I had nothing to do with my mother`s death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He has Asperger`s.

WALSH: Right. He`s on the autism spectrum disorder, sure.

BANFIELD: That`s probably not helping him in his demeanor when he answers questions that are serious and he seems so unusual.

WALSH: Yeah, there`s kind of a halting, you know, cadence there that might throw some people off. He has trouble communicating, but rest assured,

Nathan Carman is a very, very smart intelligent guy.

BANFIELD: He sure seems like it.

WALSH: Yeah, he`s representing himself in court in New Hampshire. Filing briefs competently. He`s even cross examining witnesses in Hartford, so --

BANFIELD: Wait until you hear -- if you haven`t already. The things that grandpa was paying for before grandpa died. And again, Nathan stands to

inherit a lot of money, now that mom is out of the way. Wait until you hear the list, that`s coming up after the break.

[18:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Randy Kessler and Karen Smith are back with me. All right, you two, as the story goes, Nathan in court documents is saying that grandpa

was in a sex store buying sex toys hours before he died.

And wouldn`t you know it, Nathan is pointing the finger at a 25-year-old mistress who is getting a whole lot of money, he says, from grandpa. That

sounds to me like Nathan might have a good story to tell. Karen, you`re the detective. Doesn`t that sound like it`s a legitimate avenue?

SMITH: Not to me. You don`t kill the golden goose, Ashleigh. If this man was feeding her money, why would she get rid of him? It would just stifle

any future earnings of hers. And frankly, she wouldn`t have anything to gain if he died. She`s not on his estate as far as I understand. So it

doesn`t make any sense to me.

BANFIELD: It makes sense to me when you put it that way. But at the same time, Randy, it`s a little odd. Hours before he`s dead, he`s in a sex store

at 87 years old. I mean, that`s got to be -- it could be a weird coincidence, but I would think the police would take that seriously and

they would be looking at every single possibility.

KESSLER: Right. That argument goes both ways because the grandson was also getting money. You know, a state litigation is even worse than divorce

litigation. People point the fingers at other people. If the relatives get him convicted, he can`t inherit, so they inherit more. He`s a natural

reason, they`re going to point the finger at him. He`s doing this to defend himself. Somebody else must have done it. He has got to prove it.

BANFIELD: I will say this. Nathan, if you talk about the golden goose, my goodness, Karen, Nathan was getting about $2400 a month from his grandpa

for his apartment. Grandpa was paying for all the furnishings and utilities. He took out a credit card with a $5,000 limit for Nathan. That

would be paid in full. All the time, he bought Nathan a nice truck worth I think over $20,000.

It`s estimated that grandpa gave Nathan over $100,000 a year in support. The golden goose is only valuable in a will. So it does make a little more

sense that he`s worth more perhaps dead to Nathan than he would be to the mistress, but I do think it throws a (INAUDIBLE) to all of this.

My thanks to you, Karen Smith and Randy Kessler. I appreciate it.

SMITH: Thanks.

BANFIELD: We`ll live to tell this story another day. It just keeps -- the goose that keeps giving. Thank you both. Tonight in rural Wisconsin,

thousands of people are out looking for anything. Any sign. Anything that could be evidence in the case of a missing 13-year-old girl.

Jayme Closs could be anywhere by now. She could be in some serious danger. Because she disappeared from a double murder scene. Ahead, the very latest

from the sheriff`s leading search and the neighbor who heard the gunfire.

[18:55:00] The details are next.

[19:00:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice over): The face of deep sadness and fear. We will overcome.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AHSLEIGH BANFIELD, CRIME AND JUSTICE HOST: The search for a missing girl grows 20 times in size.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: we have faith.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Because it`s been over a week since 13-year-old Jayme Closs vanished.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she is just such a sweet young girl.

BANFIELD: And she disappeared from the house where both of her parents were shot dead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really, really frightening.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn`t know this family at all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Why didn`t the neighbors call 911 as soon as they heard the shots? >

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We heard the first shot followed just a couple seconds by the second shot. Bang and bang.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: What dark clues could come from the cars that were spotted near the scene?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We had our experts pour over hours of video from homes and businesses.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: And why is the sheriff asking locals to look again at everyone around them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look for changes in behavior or routine of people either they don`t drive them any more. They`ve changed their routine and

what they drive or where they drive.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANDIELD: Plus, a killer mystery at Club Med. How did a loving New York lawyer wind up dead in the bushes in one of the most pristine places on

earth many and what makes police think she was murdered?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Emotionally, I`ve been through a huge amount.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: His own family accuses him of gunning down his grandpa just so he could take all his millions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have no idea who killed my grandfather. I know that I did not.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He`s pointing to the woman he calls grandpa`s mistress. Did the 87-year-old victim really buy the young woman a boob job? And is it

possible she murdered him for more? Or is this just a shady red herring, from a kid whose own family doesn`t trust him?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re done for this evening, period.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Especially after his own mother`s mysterious death.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s no relationship between my having been the last person to see my grandfather alive and my having been on the boat with

my mother when it sank.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: Good evening everyone. I`m Ashleigh Banfield. This is Crime and Justice. Losing your patients is bad enough, especially if they are

shot dead in front of you. But police fear that a 13-year-old girl is in grave danger tonight after vanishing from her home just minutes after she

became an orphan. And we`re learning more haunting details about that night and the bloody crime scene that was left behind as thousands of

volunteers pour into the woods of the farmland all around that house, in search of Jayme Closs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why are you here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because I can, and I`m able. And there`s a little girl missing. And if she was mine, I`d want the world looking for her. So

I`m able to be here.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: She and others like her have been told they may get dirty while searching for the evidence, any evidence about her whereabouts. And

they`ve been asked to wear hard soled shoes, they`ve also been asked to show some ID. Something we do for a variety of mundane reasons. But at

this search site in rural Wisconsin, well, that request might have a much darker meaning. It might mean police want to keep track of all the locals

who come to the crime scene, especially if one or more of them is coming back to the crime scene, or if one or more of them know the answer to who

took Jayme and who killed Jayme`s parents?

I want to start with Chris Fitzgerald who joins me for a third night now. Sheriff, I wish we could meet under different circumstances. Have you made

any headway since we spoke last night?

CHRIS FITZGERALD, WISCONSIN SHERIFF: No, we continue to follow up on leads. We received several hundred more leads today. We`re into the

1,400s, leads. And so far the search is continuing as we speak. No items were recovered, but nothing of evidentiary value tied to the Closs case.

BANFIELD: So that would be my next question. You had requested 2,000 searchers come out to volunteer, to help dig, prod and poke through these

grasses and these woods around the Closs home and surrounding area. Nothing? It has yielded literally nothing 24 hours later?

FITZGERALD: No, like I said, they`re still out now, and I was briefed early this afternoon by our evidence team. And they hadn`t recovered items

or people thought might be evidence items. Our evidence teams has reviewed those items and don`t believe they are tied to the case

BANFIELD: Sir if I can see the searchers obviously were given these orange flags. I`m only assuming that`s from the authorities to just stake out

whatever they`re curious about, but do not touch. Is that correct?

FITZGERALD: That is correct. An evidence team was sent, a law enforcement officer was sent with each team so If they found something, they weren`t

touch to it and the law enforcement officer would take those items and process them.

BANFIELD: Can I just you how many items were flagged? How many they`ve had to process? How many items have yielded nothing, no clues?

FITZGERALD: Yes. I don`t have that number. They`re still out in the field. And all I was told -- our evidence team didn`t have that number

because there`re four different evidence teams out in the field.

BANFIELD: All right. Well the day is not over yet and clearly you had a good turnout just from the pictures were seeing. Did you think you reached

that 2,000 goal -- of 2,000 searchers out there?

FITZGERALD: You know I thought in my heart we would. I just know it`s a Tuesday and the world operates around us and we understand that. But I was

very happy and a lot of hope was put back into the law enforcement efforts today because of all that effort knowing there`s over 2,000 people behind

them.

BANFIELD: Well, you know, 2,000 is a high bar. There`s only 3,000 plus in this town. So it`s 2/3 of the town. Of course, people are coming from

other areas. I`m going to go through rapid fire questions if I may and we`ll try to cover as much ground as we can Sheriff. And I completely

understand when you can`t touch certain territory. But I`m going to go there anyway just in case. Are you looking for more than one perpetrator?

FITZGERALD: We don`t know the answer to that. And that hasn`t been released.

BANFIELD: Have you gone through all of the gas stations and truck stops along every route that radiates from Jayme`s property.

FITZGERALD: Yes. We reviewed all the current video we have, from all of those current locations. And if for some reason we`ve missed somebody,

which I don`t believe we have. We`ve done neighborhood canvasses. We have alert system we`ve sent out. And we`ve stopped at every business along

those routes so yes that`s all been covered.

BANFIELD: So those gas stations, those truck stops, they have to get gas. They have to get food, and just about every single one of them, if not

every one has surveillance. You feel you`ve covered every one of those stops?

FITZGERALD: Yes, I`m very happy with our surveillance team, and the team built around that effort. And they continue to review that video to make

sure they didn`t miss anything. We put fresh eyes on that. We continue to do that video as we speak.

BANFIELD: What about Walmart`s and drugstores. You know, we have covered missing children before who have turned up. But not before showing up on

surveillance videos in Walmart`s where perhaps they`re buying hair dye or trying to alter the appearance of the child. Has that yielded anything?

FITZGERALD: It has not yielded anything. And yes, we`ve covered what we believe is every piece of evidence that we can come across or we believe

they might have gone, like you`re saying.

BANFIELD: Any campgrounds in the vicinity? We`ve also covered cases where children have turned up in campgrounds.

FITZGERALD: Our patrol division has reviewed or, you know, went through it, called (INAUDIBLE). All of our campgrounds are closed due to water

freezing. It gets very cold here at night now. But we have patrolled -- our patrol division is out checking abandoned cars, you know, other things

like that, and has produced nothing.

BANFIELD: I think Elizabeth Thomas was found in a wooded area with an abandoned cabin. Are there any vacation cabins, any vacation areas that

are out of season that you`ve been able to canvas as well?

FITZGERALD: Yes, we`ve had a lot of people call in saying, you know, I`ve closed my house up, but feel free to go check it or I have an abandoned

property that, you know, we`re fixing up, feel free to check it. That`s why we` asked for the public`s help. And the public has, you know, I like

I said those would be tips. We would follow up on that with our investigative teams. And you know we`re over 1,400 tips, which is a large

number of tips.

BANDIELD: Have you canvassed through the trucking community? All of those truck drivers that fan all those roads, are they on the lookout for

the suspect vehicles you put out yesterday?

FITZGERALD: Yes, I`ve been on trucking radio. I`ve been in gas stations, one on billboards. Yes, all of that has been covered to bring Jayme home.

BANFIELD: This is about confounding that you have fanned out over all of the necessary channels, the obvious channels. What about ATM`s and banks.

I mean these people can`t get far. They have to live in this society. It takes money, gas and food. They`ve got to stop somewhere. Any banks, any

ATM`s yield any surveillance video tapes that`s questionable?

FITZGERALD: Our surveillance team as - you know as we said, we would release it from the podium or from me. We released the video that we have

or you know the suspect vehicles or suspect persons of interest. They are not suspects. Let me correct that.

You know the person of interest and that is the only thing we`ve asked the community to do. That`s what we have to share with the community to help us

because we know the community wants to help us. And the community will be the first to know when we have a suspect or a different vehicle or

something else we want help with because we have so many people out there wanting to help and bring Jayme home.

BANFIELD: Sheriff, we just put those vehicles up there. We`ll throw them up again because I have questions about the vehicles in question. One is

vehicle number one is likely a 2008 to `14 Dodge Challenger, red or orange. And there`re the images that you want people to take a look at, to jar

their memory. The second vehicle in question, likely a 2006 to `10 black Ford Edge but it also could be a 2004 to `10 black Acura MDX. So regarding

those vehicles, you and I talked last night, you said you couldn`t get any license plate information regarding the -- releasing this information

But plate readers are often brought in to investigations like that. Is that just out of the realm of possibility right now? A, because Barron is so

rural but also because we don`t know what plate to look for?

FITGERALD: Yes. We don`t have a license plate number or we would definitely share that with the media and the public because like said we

have thousands and thousands of people that are helping us with this case you know after today -- a day like today, it`s been just tremendous and the

effort there. And I just don`t have -- I wish we had a license plate.

BANFIELD: So Sheriff, often when crime is this violent and this unbelievable, typically, the first suspects are from the deep underworld,

and in places like Chicago and Los Angeles and New York and Boston and large cities, authorities would go to the underworld. They would go to

their contacts, to their drug dealers, to the people who they know if they squeezed, they might get information. I don`t know how it works in a place

like Barron. It`s a small town, but it`s not a drug free town. Nowhere in America is. Have you been able to mine those particular resources?

FITGERALD: Yes, we`ve reached out, we have a drug unit, and we have a large meth problem in our area. And we put the word out on the street.

We`ve worked our contacts, we worked - yes. Yes, that`s been done.

BANFIELD: I`m only assuming that you and your other authorities, your counterparts in the FBI and you know in the local bureau are feeling fairly

confounded by this, these things usually yield something. They give some kind of a lead. Do you truly feel that you haven`t had a lead at all from

these typical avenues?

FITGERALD: No, because I think we have the vehicles. I think we have other things that keep us going, and we know -- somebody knows something

out there as you stated. And we believe we will find that person or persons that know something about this case or have information or something

they`re not thinking about, that`s why we continue to push the changes in behavior, changes in driving habits. Something different out there, across

the nation.

BANFIELD: any little bit of information helps. The last we spoke, we talked about the electronic trail. Every teenager has one, even if they

don`t have his or her own phone. a teenager has an electronic trail of some kind. Can you tell me what you`ve been able to ascertain from that home,

from Jayme`s electronic belongings, from whatever she left behind in the home, whatever may have gone out of the home.

What may be trackable. Does she have an apple watch? Do you know if she has her phone? Have you been able to dig into her social media? Where are you

in that picture?

FITGERALD: Currently active, and we won`t comment on that. But I assure you that team is working around the clock on those avenues that you`re

speaking about.

BANFIELD: So far, sheriff, has that been helpful?

FITGERALD: It`s -- it can lead to some leads and some you know some become closed out leads. But yes, leads get developed from information

like that, and we continue to follow those leads, and like I said, we have 200 open leads, and we continue to have local law enforcement, both our

state and federal law enforcement investigative teams follow up on those.

BANFIELD: So 200 open leads would leave me to believe you have 1100 closed leads then? Because I think you said 1300 have come in? Is that right?

FITGERALD: Yes, we`re over 1400. We`re about 1183 in closed leads. And we`re - yes So we have 200 open leads. And like I said my back parking lot

is empty and that means our teams are out closing out more of those leads. They`re looking into those leads and maybe we`ll come up with something.

BANFIELD: That`s at least promising to know that you`ve been able to get through all of those. Would it be fair to say that a solid number of those

leads that you`ve been chasing have come from the electronic trail?

FITGERALD: Boy, I wouldn`t know the answer to that. But some of those have come from that, yes.

BANFIELD: Some of the leads have come from Jayme`s particular social media trail?

FITGERALD: All family members.

BANFIELD: All family members` social media trail? Have the electronic trails of Jayme`s parents been fruitful in terms of trying to get a

direction as to where you`re going with this crime?

FITGERALD: Yes. I can`t comment on that, I won`t -- like I said all along, we won`t -- you know, share that information unless it becomes like

we need to release it to the public so they can help us.

BANFIELD: Can I ask you, when does this investigation start to shift into another mode?

FITGERALD: Shift into what, I`m sorry?

BANFIELD: When does this investigation begin to shift into another mode? We are now a week out.

FITGERALD: We haven`t let the gas off yet, and we don`t have a plan to let off the gas on is this case. And we will bring Jayme home.

BANFIELD: Can you tell me, speaking of her home, was there evidence of a struggle in the home?

FITGERALD: I can`t comment on that

BANFIELD: Is there anything more you can tell me about the home? I mean, last night you took me to the front door, where we saw the feet Of James

Closs. That`s what the first investigator saw through the open door. What about Denise?

FITGERALD: Yes. I can`t comment on her whereabouts in the residence as part of the active case?

BANFIELD: Can you tell me if their autopsies yielded anything in particular, out of the ordinary?

FITGERALD: I can tell you what we released and that is that they died of gunshot wounds.

BANFIELD: Is there anything more to the way they died?

FITGERALD: I don`t think I can -- I don`t think we`ve released anything like that or -- other than they died of gunshot wounds.

BANFIELD: So I`m going to ask you if you would do me a favor sheriff and I`m not sure if this is going to be helpful or not. I think it may be.

FITGERALD: OK.

BANFIELD: We put these shows together right up until the minute I sit down and sign on and I`m not kidding you. I`ve got some notes that run of our

phenomenal producers has handed me. She`s been also speaking with one of the witnesses in the case, I`m sure that you have spoken with Joan Smrekar,

one of the neighbors that heard the gunshots? Is that correct sir?

FITGERALD: I believe I don`t know the answer of every person that`s been interviewed. I`m sure if she`s been part of this, she`s been interviewed.

BANFIELD: It`s the collective you and I. I didn`t mean to put you on the spot. But certainly she has been questioned by police as well, as to

what she -- as an ear witness could yield. She`s joining me live now as well. So if I can, I want to bring the two of you together. Joan, can you

hear me?

JOAN SMREKAR, CLOSS NEIGHBOR: Yes, I can.

BANFIELD: Joan, thank you for coming back on the program. When we spoke last week, you sort of broke news on this program, that you had heard two

shots, just a couple seconds apart. Just after -- I think you said it was just after 12:00 midnight, correct?

SMREKAR: Correct.

BANFIELD: And have you been able to sort of think back to the preceding moments and the proceeding moments, the before and after as to how quiet

everything was if there had been other shots? Would you have heard them? Have you been able to think through that at all or if you ascertained

anything different since we first spoke?

SMREKAR: Well knowing the door was kicked in. And it`s probably the reason that the shots sounded differently to us. It was just too loud and too

close. But if there were other shots, we did not hear any of them. We just heard the two at about 12:31.

BANFIELD: And when you say too loud and too close. You mean, there were two loud gunshots, and they were close together, just a couple seconds

apart, correct?

SMREKAR: that`s correct.

BANFIELD: All right, and this is where I think the sheriff is going to be interested in what you have to say, if his deputies haven`t already heard

this but bare with me. Joan the newest information in the case came out yesterday. And it was the descriptions of the vehicles that police are

tracking. And I`m going to ask our producers to put the red vehicle up on the screen if we can.

The description that was put out for vehicle number one was likely a 2008 to 2014 Dodge Challenger, red or orange in color. You`ve just told our Beth

Carrie here at Crime and Justice that you think you may have seen this vehicle

SMREKAR: I`ve seen a vehicle like that in baron several times, and last night -- it`s not fair to say this is the vehicle, get someone in trouble.

But there was one parked in the Jerome`s parking lot last night, that resembled that picture.

BANFIELD: what parking lot was that, Joan? Can you be specific? I`m not sure I recognize the name, but maybe the sheriff will.

SMREKAR: Jerome`s. It would be Jenny O. Turkey Store

BANFIELD: Sheriff, do you recognize that parking lot?

FITZGERALD: Yes, we received that tip. Jenny O is where both Denise and James worked. That is a correct statement, that tip was followed up on,

and that person was cleared.

BANFIELD: So the person who might have been at that parking lot last night, that has already been cleared and because that`s what Joan was

saying she was at an event last night and saw what looked like that vehicle in the parking lot last night.

FITZGERALD: That is correct. That vehicle was parked in that parking lot. And an employee of jenny o has that vehicle, but that is not the correct

vehicle?

BANFIELD: Is it the one with the black stripe?

FITZGERALD: I don`t know what the vehicle looked like but our investigative team did close that out.

BANFIELD: That`s been closed out. That`s so difficult. And Joan, is there anything else that jogged your memory since we spoke as well, with the

information that`s been released since we spoke?

SMREKAR: We have a very little part in all of this. We heard very little in all of this. We heard the two shots and we just -- we thought they were

unusual. We did not call, in because we`re used to hearing gunshots around here, people hunting or -- we thought maybe someone was chasing a bear out

of their yard. And I wish I would have called to have it checked out. I really do.

BANFIELD: Well, you know, you and I had this conversation a week ago, you said the same thing to me a week ago, and frankly, Joan, the place where

you live, it wouldn`t have been odd, so please don`t think for a minute that you`ve done anything wrong that you haven`t done anything out of the

ordinary.

it`s a rural place, and those sounds happen, and that is not unusual. Joan, I`m going to let you go, thank you very much. Sheriff, stay with me

if you will. I want to bring Ryan Young into the conversation. He`s our CNN Correspondent who`s on location as well. You just never know with all of

the information that`s coming in at real time. Ryan you were able to hear Joan Smrekar and her conversation with us about the vehicle was spotted

last night, it`s been cleared, not even 24 hours later, by the sheriff.

And then you heard the string of questions that the sheriff and I just sort of picked through. This is so confounding. I`m just wondering on the

ground there, if you`re feeling the same vexing feeling that it seems like a dead-end every time you turn around.

RYAN YOUNG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we are in Chicago but we`ve talked to people around that area, and the one thing that stood out to us, and it

seems like the same thing that stood out to the sheriff, is the idea that so many people wanted to be involved in this, and they went out there today

to be a part of that search. You get 2,000 people to go out and be a part of this search, it really stands out to you. when you think about how

nerve-racking this could be for a small community. If you describe some of the crime stories over the last year, this sounds something completely

different, two parents being killed in their home, a child missing. I think this has touched a lot of people.

one thing I gathered from what the Sheriff has been saying. But something that we`ve seen. It seemed like they`ve not left any stone unturned not

only doing billboards, but getting the word out to the community. And then you actually have that visual that happened last night. When you think

about the impact of this, this is getting a lot of people to pay attention across the country. There`s high interest in this and as you know, putting

that vehicle description out there, putting the 1-800 number out there, and getting this out as much as possible. Can be a force multiplier for police

and law enforcement, who seem like they`re doing the most they can.

BANFIELD: Sometimes it`s hard to track who`s coming in and out of the story. My apologies Ryan, I know you`re Chicago. We`ve had correspondents

coming into this story and then going to back to base. And at this -- this is the place where you`re the collection point for so much of the video

you`re seeing as well, and the developments too. This story isn`t -- it seems like a local story for everyone. i can only imagine as close as you

are to it, it feels like it`s also a Chicago story.

RYAN: Well you just know that in terms of the conversation, especially somewhere near the Midwest. You think about Wisconsin, you don`t think

about stories like this, and the idea that a young girl like this could be abducted or something would happen to her. And you put the description out

on these vehicles. one of the things that the sheriff talked about that stood out to me, the idea that they have that video surveillance team out

there, stitching together the video from different places, we know from other cases just recently, that video from people`s homes can really turn

some of these cases around. If you think back to Mollie Tibbetts, you think someone had a camera on the car, and that focused everyone`s eyes on

the suspect.

BANFIELD: Ryan thanks for the work you`re doing on this. Sheriff Chris Fitzgerald, I hope we speak again, and there`s more news and better news

the next time we speak. And God speed to everybody out there who`s doing all of this work. Thank you and my thanks to Joan Smeaker as well.

A dream vacation takes a nightmarish turn when a New York mom is found dead at Club Med.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: It`s the kind of trip that sounds just perfect this time of year, when the weather starts getting cold or let`s be real, it sounds

perfect any time of year. A vacation to the Turks and Caicos, to an all inclusive resorts just steps from one of the most pristine beaches on the

planet. But just steps away from that world renowned beach is where Marie Kuhnla was found in the bushes dead, after disappearing overnight. And

authorities down in that Caribbean paradise are still trying to figure out what happened to Marie. But they`re calling Marie`s case without question,

a murder investigation.

With me now live Eileen Lehpamer, she`s a criminal justice reporter for a CNN affiliate, News 12 Long Island. Also with me, retired detective and

forensic specialist, Karen Smith and trial attorney Randy Kessler. Eileen, let me begin with you. It sounds as though Marie Kuhnla was on a typical

Club Med vacation, the all-inclusive resort with two of her friends. But how did she go missing?

EILEEN LEHPAMER, CRIMINAL JUSTICE REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE NEWS 12 LONG ISLAND: Well, that`s what we`re still trying to find out, even her family

is still trying to find that out. Today, I spoke with Marie`s brother, who said, they`re not getting a lot of answers at all. She did go on a

vacation described as a girls` vacation with one of her co-workers, another friend and that friend`s daughter, so four women from Long Island down at

that Club Med.

The brother tells me they did try to report her missing on Sunday, and they were told they had to wait 24 hours. They reported her missing on Monday,

and it wasn`t until the next morning that her body was found in the bushes. At this point --

BANFIELD: So, what`s so strange about this, Eileen, what`s so bizarre -- I get it. If you go out walking on the beach at night in any foreign

country, that`s a -- that`s a dangerous proposition. But it sounds to me that`s not necessarily what happened. It looks as though she was last seen

on her way to her hotel room at 6:00 at night. That`s almost like after the beach day wraps up, and you`re saying goodbye to your friends to go and

shower off and get ready for dinner. That was the last time she was seen. But they didn`t find her body until the next morning. Does anyone know

anything about what happened after Marie presumably sort of left her pals as the sun was going down on the beach?

LEHPAMER: Yes, it was actually 48 hours, because she went missing on Sunday. And the friends said they started to, you know, look for her,

tried to report it to the authorities, and then some of the local people there started to look for her, and then 24 hours later, police launched

their investigation and found her that Tuesday morning.

BANFIELD: Any idea how she died?

LEHPAMER: No. At this point, the family did say they did an autopsy late last week. And they are awaiting those results. Again, the brother

telling me he feels really frustrated at this point, because they can`t even get those answers.

BANFIELD: Here`s a question that will sound strange, but I think it will yield a lot of clues. Do they know what she was wearing when she was

found?

LEHPAMER: No, the brother says he had not been able to even get that information. So, I do not know that at this point.

BANFIELD: So, I want to bring in Karen Smith, a retired detective, I asked that question because if she was in her bathing suit, she probably never

made it back at 6:00 from that day in the sun. It would be a critical piece of information. But here`s the question I have for you, you`re good

at what you do, you have always been good at what you do. As a forensic specialist, you know what you`re looking for. Do people in the islands

have the same kinds of skills? Do they work as hard at these cases? Do they have the resources that, say, we would have here in America?

KAREN SMITH, RETIRED DETECTIVE, JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF`S OFFICE: The keyword is resources, Ashleigh. You know, some of these smaller islands are not

going to have the resources that we have here. Especially in L.A. and New York, and Orlando, some of these larger places. They`re going to be

dealing with very rudimentary tools most of the time. I don`t know what their budget looks like. And normally, budgets are spent on patrol.

They`re not going to be spent on the forensic unit. We`ve always been the black sheep, we always will be. And unfortunately, that`s sort of how it

goes. I see they`re wearing tyvek suit. They know how to handle a crime scene, whether or not they have the technical expertise to go in and look

for these minute details, I really don`t know.

BANFIELD: Yes. They`re not releasing a lot of information. I will say this, Club Med is -- has told us they are cooperating in all of this.

They`re cooperating in the investigation. But I want to read something I found really surprising. I did not expect this. I`ve been to the Turks

and Caicos, it is spectacular. It doesn`t for the least bit feel dangerous there. But if you check with the United States State Department, there`s a

travel advisory that actually was just issued in January, for the Turks and Caicos, exercise caution.

And let me read, "Exercise increased caution in the Turks and Caicos Islands due to crime. Violent crime, such as armed robbery, shootings, and

home invasions is common. Police presence and emergency responses are extremely limited. Avoid walking alone at night. Do not answer your door

at your hotel residence unless you know who it is. Do not physically resist any robbery attempt."

And Randy Kessler, they have a number, they have a level, and Turks and Caicos is at a level 2. Places like Aruba, Bermuda, Saint Kitts, Saint

Lucia, the Cayman Islands, Saint Martin are all at a level one, not as dangerous. Does that mean that you pay your money, take your chances, and

if something happens when you`re there, Godspeed?

RANDY KESSLER, TRIAL ATTORNEY: No, I mean, the United States government is always going to err on the side of caution, be safe. And those are just

good advisories for any country. And in fact, in America, there`s a lot of good advice to not do that kind of stuff, not resist a robbery. But you

know what, that`s what it`s there for, we should pay attention to what the State Department puts out. I don`t know why they`re not releasing details,

I don`t think it`s because of P.R. and they want good P.R. I think if they know something that if it got out publicly, then the witness`s testimony

would not be as valuable. Somebody knows something, somebody told them something, or they saw something, that they want to find independent

evidence to corroborate.

BANFIELD: Well, stay with -- stay with me, if you will, and my thanks to Eileen Lehpamer for her reporting on this.

Sex, money, and murder, Nathan Carman`s own aunties believe that he`s responsible for his grandfather`s mysterious death. But tonight, he is

offering a brand new theory, saying someone else might be responsible for the 87-year-old millionaire`s killing. And that someone he says is his

grandfather`s 25-year-old mistress.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:41:02] BANFIELD: Some families are plagued by death. And tragedy after tragedy takes loved ones off of the family tree. But at some point

too many tragedies seems a little suspicious. And some of Nathan Carman`s family members don`t think that it`s just a coincidence that he lost his

mom and his grandfather. Because that grandfather was found dead in his home of a gunshot wound that matches a rifle that Nathan had apparently

purchased.

Oh, by the way, grandpa was really rich, like a real estate tycoon. Allegedly had millions to give away in inheritance if he died. And since

Nathan was reportedly the last person to see his grandfather, the night that he died. Well, Nathan seemed to be maybe one of the prime suspects,

at least to his family members, who find him less than honest. Family members who became even more suspicious when he took his mom on a fishing

trip a few years later. The only person standing between Nathan and all of that inheritance from grandpa would be mom. And the only person who did

not come back from that trip was mom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NATHAN CARMAN, MURDER SUSPECT: Hello, this is -- hello, this is Nathan Carman.

COAST GUARD: Nathan, this is United States Coast Guard Boston. I need to understand what happened, over.

CARMAN: Mom and I, two people, myself and my mom, were fishing at Block Canyon. And there was a funny noise in the engine compartment. I looked

and saw a lot of water. When I saw the life raft, I did not see my mom. Have you found her?

COAST GUARD: No, we haven`t been able to find her yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: There has never been any concrete evidence that Nathan caused his mom`s death or disappearance for that matter, or there`s never been any

evidence that he gunned down his grandfather either. But there`s also never been another suggestion for who killed the man with all the money,

until now. Because after saying he had no idea who could have killed his grandfather, Nathan is now pointing at somebody else for his family and for

the courts to consider. Somebody else who was getting money from grandpa. And just about the same age as Nathan, too. The 25-year-old woman who was

supposedly his grandfather`s mistress. You heard right.

With me now, James Walsh, he is a New York Magazine reporter, the author of "Playing Against the House: The Dramatic World of an Undercover Union."

And he`s been covering this story for months and months, and I think you`re about to come out with something big in the offings, aren`t you? Because

you`ve been collecting material as we`ve gone along in this case. The case takes a different turn it seems every couple weeks to a month. And now

this, all of sudden, we`re hearing about a 25-year-old mistress who`s with an 87-year-old grandpa. If I`m doing the math, that`s 62 years between

them. Why didn`t we hear about this before? Why didn`t Nathan say something about her before, if he truly believes she might have something

to do with it?

JAMES WALSH, REPORTER, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: Well, there`s a lot of reasons that Nathan would have held onto this information, or maybe didn`t have the

opportunity to put it out there. And -- but I think if we really look closely and zoom in at this new revelation, it sort of, you know, doesn`t

really stand up to muster, I do think, you know, it`s worth looking into, but the thing is, we know the police did look into this. You know, the

police did interview Mistress Y, as she`s called in the court of documents.

BANFIELD: Mistress Y, as in the letter Y?

WALSH: Mistress Y, the letter Y.

BANFIELD: They`re keeping her identity close to their vest?

[19:45:01] WALSH: Correct.

BANFIELD: But she`s 25.

WALSH: Reportedly, she`s 25.

BANFIELD: And is it -- have the police at least let on or through court documents, at least, do we know that this really is a relationship?

WALSH: Yes, you know, apparently, grandpa Chakalos paid for breast enhancement, $3500 breast enhancement.

BANFIELD: Because Nathan is saying that he gave her all sorts of money. I think in the hundreds, he was dolling out money to her. 800 at a time I`m

reading, that these are Nathan`s allegations in court documents, because like I said, this case has taken so many turns. There`s the missing

mother, there`s the boat trip that went awry, there`s the insurance money for the boat is a court case, the slayer action from his aunties saying he

should never get the inheritance because we think he killed -- he is not a suspect in either of these disappearance deaths, right?

WALSH: Well, no, he is the primary suspect.

BANFIELD: He`s not been named a suspect by the police, correct?

WALSH: He`s been named the primary.

BANFIELD: Sorry. He`s not been charged?

WALSH: Yes, he`s not been charged. Yes.

BANFIELD: I should be more careful. Pardon me.

WALSH: Yes.

BANFIELD: He has not been charged with anything. And they continue to look at him, if you think that he sounded odd -- I`m just going to play for

you the moment where he said he had nothing to do with the deaths. Because there`s a demeanor here that might make people, you know, tilt their head

and wonder. I want you to just take a look at it, and then I`ll ask you something on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CARMAN: I have no idea who killed my grandfather. I know that I did not. I had nothing to do with my mother`s death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BANFIELD: He has Asperger`s.

WALSH: Right. He`s on the autism spectrum disorder, sure.

BANFIELD: That probably is not helping him in his demeanor when he answers questions. Very serious and he seems so unusual.

WALSH: Yes, there is kind of a halting, you know, cadence there that might throw some people off. And he has trouble, you know, communicating, but

rest assured, Nathan Carman is a very, very smart, you know, intelligent guy. He --

BANFIELD: He seems like it.

WALSH: Yes. He`s represented himself in court in New Hampshire. Filing briefs competently. He`s even cross-examining witnesses in Hartford, so --

BANFIELD: Wait until you -- wait until you hear -- if you haven`t already -- the things that grandpa was paying for before grandpa died. And again,

Nathan stands to inherit a lot of money, now that mom is out of the way. But wait until you hear the list, that`s coming up right after the break.

[19:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BANFIELD: Randy Kessler and Karen Smith are back with me. All right, you two, as the storey goes, Nathan, in court documents, is saying that grandpa

was in a sex store buying sex toys hours before he died, and wouldn`t you know it, Nathan is pointing the finger at a 25-year-old mistress who is

getting a whole lot of money, he says, from grandpa. That sounds to me like Nathan might have a good story to tell. Karen, you`re the detective,

doesn`t that sound like it`s a legitimate avenue to plum?

SMITH: Not to me. You don`t kill the golden goose, Ashleigh. If this man was feeding her money, why would he get rid of him? Or, why would she get

rid of him? It would just stifle any future earnings of hers, and frankly, she wouldn`t have anything to gain if he died. She`s not on his estate as

far as I understand. So, it doesn`t make any sense to me.

BANFIELD: It makes sense to me when you put it that way, but at the same time, Randy, it`s a little odd. Hours before he`s dead, he`s in a sex

store at 87 years old? I mean, that`s got to be -- it could be a weird coincidence, but I would think the police would take that seriously and

they`d be looking at every single possibility.

KESSLER: Right. And that argument goes both ways because the son -- the grandson was also getting money. And you know, estate litigation is even

worse than divorce litigation. People points their fingers at other people. If the -- if the relatives get him convicted, he can`t inherit, so

they inherit more. He`s a natural reason they`re going to point the finger at him. He`s doing this to defend himself. Somebody else must have done

it, he`s got to prove it.

BANFIELD: I will say this, Nathan, if you talk about a golden goose, my goodness, Karen, Nathan was getting about $2400 a month from his grandpa

for his apartment, grandpa was paying for all the furnishings and the utilities, he took out a credit card with a $5,000 limit for Nathan, and

that would be paid in full all the time. He bought Nathan a nice truck worth, I think over $20,000. And it`s estimated that grandpa gave Nathan

over $100,000 a year in support. The golden goose is only valuable in a will. So, it does make a little more sense that he`s worth more perhaps

dead to Nathan than he would be to the mistress, but I do think it throws a weird wrench into all this. My thank to you, Karen Smith and Randy

Kessler, I appreciate it.

SMITH: Thanks.

BANFIELD: We`ll leave to tell this story another day. It just keeps -- it`s the goose that keeps getting. Thank you, both. We`ll see you right

back here tomorrow night, 6:00 Eastern. "FORENSIC FILES" is up next.

[19:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Up next, a young boy witnesses a terrible crime.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was gagged. She`s been tied, her hands were tied and everything.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The chief suspect virtually turns himself in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He appeared exactly like the composite sketch. We have him with no alibi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But forensic tests failed to tie him to the crime.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was not a cheerful day for prosecution.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn`t believe they were going to let him walk to possibly do this to somebody else.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could forensics provide the answer?

END