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California Shooting; Sheriff's Deputy Among Dead; Fate of Mueller Probe. Aired 6:30-7a ET

Aired November 8, 2018 - 06:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[06:30:00] BETTY HARRAH, SON WITNESSED SHOOTING (via telephone): I said to him, where are you? Are you safe? And he -- I said, I'm coming there. I was running with my phone. And he's telling me, don't come here, mom, it's not safe. And I said, I'm coming there. And he said, please, don't come. And I said, OK, just stay where you're at.

And then there were people knocking on the door trying to get in but he wasn't opening it. And then he -- they told him that it was OK. So he opened the door. And he -- at that point he went and got his car. I don't think his car was parked in the vicinity. I think it was parked down the street. And he took this little girl to the hospital who had a broken arm. She broke her arm when she was running. So I, you know, it --

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Yes. Betty, how old is your son?

HARRAH: He's 20. So he's -- you know, it's -- this club is for 18 and up, you know, so there's some kids there that -- there's alcohol that's served but they put big xs on their hands and -- he doesn't drink anyway.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARRAH: So it's a very safe environment. I mean I have no -- I don't even think twice. He's my youngest of three. But he used to be a little bit more rambunctious than the rest of them, but he's a great kid.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARRAH: And this is the one place that he knows that's very safe.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARRAH: I mean no one would ever, ever, ever expect this.

CAMEROTA: I mean, Betty, I'm just trying to imagine, as a mom, what happens when you get a phone call from your son saying that he's hiding from a mass shooter. I mean what did --

HARRAH: You know in the -- you know when you see the movies and that tragic scene happens and the camera kind of comes in real close, that's kind of what it feels like.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARRAH: It feels like a whirlwind, like you're whole -- like it's a sinking feeling because you feel helpless. You -- and all -- and all I could do was just communicate with him, calm him down, make sure that he did not open that door.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARRAH: You know, because you just don't know.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HARRAH: You just don't know. It's a very -- it's a very scary thing. You know, he's been vomiting. He's very upset because of what he witnessed.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Did he --

HARRAH: I don't know -- he doesn't know if that girl -- he thinks the girl that got shot is not alive. I told him, you have to think positive, but he doesn't think she's alive.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Did he tell you anymore about what the gunman looked like or said or did or how old?

HARRAH: Yes, he said he didn't hear any words out of his mouth. He said he literally walked in, he saw him pull up the gun and just shot the girl. And at that point everybody, you know, everybody just kind of dropped. His one girlfriend dropped. You know, he was with all his friends. That's the thing, they're all friends. They're all from different -- you know, we live in Simi. This is Thousand Oaks. I was born and raised here. I went to West Lake High School. I mean we're all -- everybody's just very close.

So when -- there's 11 people but we don't know who those 11 people are. But that's the -- that's the scary part about it. But he was just a man in black. Had a beard. Said he had glasses on, a beanie, a black jacket and he just started shooting.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I'm just going to repeat what we heard him say, a guy in black, a trench coat -- a trench-looking coat, had a beard, wearing glasses. Just, it all happened so fast. Don't know how old. Don't know much more.

This is the second mass shooting, Betty, of this kind of caliber in two weeks in America.

HARRAH: Exactly (ph).

CAMEROTA: And now your family and your son will have to live, obviously -- I mean he survived, thank God, but obviously he will carry this with him.

What is the message after something like this?

HARRAH: And it's very sad, you know, because he's 20. And for someone -- I mean, you know, and I'm a mom of three and I've never experienced this. So it's scary for our children, our young adults, to have to go through this because it's -- you know, that will be embedded in his head forever. You know, and I'm worried about him. I am. It's -- because he -- he really shouldn't be experiencing this. He's in school. He's trying to, you know, get his life going where he needs to go with his career. It's -- you know, it's just something that doesn't need to happen, you know?

And now we have 11 kids out here that are dead and we have -- I mean I'm sure he's going to know most of them. You know, so it's -- we're a little community. You know, we're -- like you said, we're the safe haven. We're the safest place in the world, you know, and people feel safe here and it's tragic that we're all experiencing this.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

Betty Harrah, we're really sorry you and your son had to endure this tonight. Thank you very much for telling us his eyewitness account and your experience of getting that phone call. We're thinking about you tonight.

HARRAH: Thank you. Appreciate it.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It is where you go to be safe. A mother saying of her son who just survived a mass shooting, that club is where you go to be safe. A synagogue is where you go to be safe. A high school is where you go to be safe. A church in Texas is where you go to be safe.

[08:35:02] Much more of our breaking news coverage coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: The breaking news this morning, 12 people killed in the deadliest mass shooting in America in 12 days. Overnight, police say a gunman opened fire inside a southern California bar that was filled with college kids. There are 12 people dead, including a sheriff's deputy, who ran to confront the shooter. Authorities say there are many more injured.

Our Nick Watt is live at the scene in Thousand Oaks, California, with the very latest.

Nick.

NICK WATT, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, John. It was college country night here at the Borderline Grill in Thousand Oaks when this gunman burst in and started to fire at the crowd inside the club. Now, I've spoke to some eyewitnesses who were further back in the club who say that actually the crowd was thicker back there. Most of the shooting appeared to happen around the doorway. Eleven people killed inside the club.

[06:40:10] Now, the calls came in at about 11:20. Within minutes a sheriff's sergeant was on the scene, along with a California highway patrolman. They tried to enter the building and were met with a hail of bullets.

Now, the California highway patrolman managed to pull the injured sheriff's deputy out of the line of fire, but that deputy, Ron Helus, died about an hour and a half ago in the hospital.

Now, the gunman was also found dead inside the club of a gunshot wound. It's -- we're not clear whether that was a self-inflicted gunshot wound. And the investigation goes on. We're told it is a dynamic and fluid investigation. They are still trying to identify that gunman.

Now, eyewitnesses from inside described him as a man of average build wearing dark clothing. Some people say a trench coat. Some people say some sort of hat, glasses and beard and he was carrying a short- barreled handgun.

Now, he apparently opened fire. Then there was a lull. There was a pause, at which point some people told us they got out from underneath the pool tables and tables they were hiding under, threw bar stools through the windows and managed to escape. Unclear at this point how many people were injured. They say at least 10, 15, and it could be a lot more.

Let's hear a little bit from the Ventura County sheriff about that sergeant who died and also hear form some of the people who were inside at the time of the shooting.

SHERIFF GEOFF DEAN, VENTURA COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: Ron was a hard- working, dedicated sheriff's sergeant. He was totally committed. He gave his all. And tonight, as I told his wife, he died a hero because he went and he -- he went in to save lives, to save other people.

KAYLA SIMMONS, SURVIVED SHOOTING: I mean he was shooting everything from the speakers to anything. So all we really saw was just smoke and we just saw the shots taking off. So we just tried to get down as fast as we could and get out of there. I heard the shots and I pushed -- we all -- everyone kind of just got down and started freaking out, running around. I just told her to get down, get out. Let's just move. We need to get out of here before, you know, anything gets -- happens. We don't know where he's coming from. It was a semi-automatic.

SUMMER, SURVIVED SHOOTING: Yes.

SIMMONS: I just heard, you know, 18 to 20 rounds at a time. That's all I heard before I got out.

SUMMER: Our main concern was just take cover hoping that all of our friends that were in there also could get out safe. I didn't see anyone else. I was down -- stayed down, but, I mean, it was such a blur. I don't even know what to think of it. So --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WATT: Now, the sheriff described the scene inside as an horrific scene. He said blood is everywhere.

Now, eyewitnesses say that they did not hear the gunman say anything before he opened fire or during the firing. And as I mentioned, this investigation is still ongoing. It's still dynamic. They are still trying to identify that gunman.

We've got sheriff's deputies here. We've got the FBI. We've got the ATF. They are all trying to figure out who this gunman was.

But the tragic headline here is 11 people dead inside that club and the sheriff's sergeant who came to try and help also now deceased.

John and Alisyn, back to you.

BERMAN: Nick Watt for us in Thousand Oaks.

And, Nick, let me ask you, because the identities of those who were killed, we don't have them yet. But the sheriff basically told us we can assume they're young people. The nightclub would allow people as young as 18 in there. He says there's every reason to assume the age range of those killed is 18 to 26.

Who's still there on the scene? It's, what, 3:45 a.m. Pacific Time. Are there still people who are in the club milling about? Are there parents maybe of people who are concerned that their kids were inside?

WATT: Yes, I mean, there have been many people who managed to escape from inside the club who have been standing out here wrapped in blankets. They were obviously -- they were line dancing at the time of this shooting and they escaped with whatever they were wearing at the time. So people wrapped in blankets, desperately trying to call their friends. One young woman I spoke to who had an x on her hand, which means that she was under drinking age, under 21, she was trying to find her friend who she was hiding under a table with. She doesn't know where he is. She still doesn't know where he is.

So, yes, I mean, there are a number of colleges around here. And as we mentioned, this was college country night, and it started about 9:00, was supposed to go on until 2:00. We're told by eyewitnesses that the club wasn't packed at the time of the shooting at 11:20, but it was getting pretty busy. But, yes, a very young crowd. So the victims, we suspect, are in that age range, 18 to 21, around there.

John.

CAMEROTA: Nick, thank you very much for the reporting. Obviously we will check back with you throughout the program.

[06:45:00] James, you've been listening to all of this, sitting with us. The idea that they were line dancing. I mean the idea that they went there to hear music and to dance and they're in college, and we all can relate to that, going to a college bar with your community and that the woman whose son survived it says that this is the place that he felt safest in the world. He went there one night a week. He knew the girl at the cash register who was the first person that he saw shot. You know, there's just -- we need to know who the gunman is. We need to know why they would target here. But, you know, it just feels like we've been there before.

JAMES GAGLIANO, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes. And that's a perfect segue. Look at what the FBI has studied of recent. Between 2000 and 2017, 250 mass shootings. Now, we can argue whether it's three or four casualties, how you define it. Two hundred and fifty of those in 17 years. Twenty-two hundred casualties, 800 dead. This is going to add to that.

The FBI, right now, working closely obviously with Ventura County. And I'm sure there's state, local, federal components all together on this, have to get to motive. And, again, people argue and say, why is that so important? To understand what was behind this. What was this person thinking? Was this just somebody who had, you know, mental health issues? Was this somebody that was following some type of, you know, perverse ideology or hated, whatever it is?

CAMEROTA: And to try to stop it. But we don't seem to have tackled that part successfully.

GAGLIANO: Yes. And we talked about this during the commercial. The issue here about -- about armed guards. And these are classic soft targets. The yoga studio. A synagogue. A Kroger. And now here a nightclub. The issue is, is just that, doing that, the -- first of all, the expense. The second piece of this, how do you expect people to be trained well enough to react in a critical reaction like that? When lawmaker officers study after study after study have shown generally hit, during crisis incidents, one out of five bullets ends up where it's supposed to be.

BERMAN: Law enforcement is good at responding to this now. Thank God they are. It's a small consolation, though, that they've had so much practice that they've established a protocol that makes sense.

GAGLIANO: John, watching the scene there, you saw how law enforcement is now responding. You saw FBI agents in tactical gear, sheriff's office folks in tactical gear, police officers in tactical gear. The age of worrying about having a homogenous unit are over. We learned that in Columbine. You can't wait until a tactical team shows up. And the sheriff's deputy that was killed, Sergeant Helus, I mean, going in, in ones and twos, you have to get to these people now soon. You've got to interdict them. And he probably saved countless lives.

CAMEROTA: James Gagliano, thank you very much.

Obviously we are continuing to report on this breaking news. We have our reporters at the scene.

Also this morning, there's other news. There are a lot of new developments with President Trump's reaction to Republicans losing the House and his firing of Attorney General Jeff Sessions. So all of that next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[06:52:00] BERMAN: This morning, the fate of Robert Mueller's Russia investigation hangs in the balance after President Trump fired the attorney general, Jeff Sessions, and replaced him, at least for the time being, with the chief of staff at the Justice Department, Matthew Whitaker. He takes over as acting attorney general. This means he is overseeing the special counsel's Russia probe, and Whitaker is on record opposing that probe.

Let's bring in Jeffrey Toobin, our legal analyst. Also with us John Avlon and Toluse Olorunnipa from "Bloomberg."

Jeffrey, Whitaker not only opposes the investigation, but he's basically provided a road map by which the person overseeing Robert Mueller can make it more or less go away. I just want to play you what Whitaker, who was a contributor here on CNN, has said about this before. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW WHITAKER, FORMER CNN LEGAL COMMENTATOR: Well, I can see a scenario where Jeff Sessions is replaced with a recess appointment and that attorney general doesn't fire Bob Mueller but he just reduces the budget so low that his investigation grinds to an absolutely -- almost a halt.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: Take away the money, refuse to issue indictments. Whitaker has the road map and we know, in fact, the will in the past, to stop parts of this investigation.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: And let's be clear, the reason why he was appointed was not because of his distinguished record as the U.S. attorney in Iowa. The reason he is the new attorney general of the United States, we'll see for how long, is because he's a critic of Robert Mueller and has suggested ways of limiting the investigation.

Now, whether he actually does that or when he does that is uncertain at this point. But there should be no mystery about why this fairly obscure lawyer is now the attorney general of the United States.

CAMEROTA: So that's why you're connecting the dots, because there's no other reason he would have been chosen?

TOOBIN: Absolutely not. That is the only reason why he would be chosen for this job, because he is a critic of the Mueller office.

CAMEROTA: Toluse, you are the White House reporter. Is there -- is the thinking that the president was waiting until the moment that he knew that Republicans had secured the Senate in order to do this?

TOLUSE OLORUNNIPA, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, "BLOOMBERG NEWS": I think that's part of it. I think the president also wanted to wait until after the midterms because he was hearing from a number of different Republican leaders, don't do this before the midterms, you're going to cause us political damage. We're going to lose the House. They lost the House anyways. It seems like they've lost at least a couple dozen seats, and now the president feels unchained and unshackled and he doesn't have to listen to Paul Ryan anymore, who's going out the door. He can do what he wants to do. He's been calling this investigation a hoax for a year now and now he feels like he's the president and he can take action. And now that he has actually picked up a few seats in the Senate, he feels emboldened to do what he wants to with this investigation. And we're likely to see the president actually -- to take continued and further steps. We have to look at whether or not Rosenstein's going to leave. We have to look at whether or not the president's going to order this investigation to be curtailed in some way. And right now we're seeing silence from all the senators and it's looking like the president has free reign to do what he wants. But the House is now going to be Democratic and they can use their investigatory powers to challenge him on that.

[06:55:05] BERMAN: You're left with the impression that with this new Senate coming in, if the president nominated Roger Stone to be the attorney general, he would be confirmed. I -- there really isn't much --

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: If there are limits.

CAMEROTA: Are there?

BERMAN: I don't know.

TOOBIN: There aren't many (ph).

BERMAN: Because the president, at this news conference, which was a crazy, rollicking 90 minutes of many different problems there, he knew he was firing Jeff sessions when he walked in that door.

AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: He knew he was firing Jeff Sessions when he declared war on Democrats in the House if they dare investigate him and he threatened, I can do this, too. He knew it when he went after reporters who dared asked questions about the Mueller investigation. That was what we saw yesterday.

AVLON: That's exactly right.

Look, the rollicking is one word for that press conference, but it was -- certainly was lengthy. He got a direct question about this and he sidestepped it, knowing that Kelly, at his insistence, had already fired Sessions and didn't even give him the decency of a week to get out of his office. He said, you're out today. So that, you know, clearly, he did not want to, quote, step on his own message, but he knew this was going forward.

Second, typically in this situation, you put the deputy attorney general in this position. Obviously he didn't want to put Rosenstein in. He was waiting until the day after the election to avoid any political blowback. And Whitaker's only credibility and criteria is that he is a hard partisan who's been accused of being a back channel, some say spy, to the White House from the Justice Department. He's written and spoken out several times repeatedly, in fact, about the Mueller probe, retweeting at one point an article that called it a lynch mob, the Mueller lynch mob. And that, you know, the fix is in on that front. We'll see whether it's slow rolled. We'll see how it's done. The key is, with the Democrats controlling the House, they can subpoena documents that he might otherwise try to quash related to the investigation.

CAMEROTA: Well, speaking of the unchecked power. At the press conference yesterday, the president explained what he thinks that he could do in terms of Mueller and firing him. So listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I could fire everybody right now, but I don't want to stop it, because politically I don't like stopping it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What about -- yes.

TRUMP: It's a disgrace. It should have never been started because there was no crime. It is -- everybody has conflicts. They all have conflicts over there that are beyond anything that anybody's ever seen in terms of conflicts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Jeffrey, is that true, he could fire everybody right now?

TOOBIN: He could. I mean, he could. I mean we'd see what the repercussions would be. But, I mean, the Mueller office is part of the Department of Justice. It is not independent the way Kenneth Starr was an independent council. He is part of the Department of Justice. There is a chain of command, which Donald Trump is at the top of. He could.

The question would be, is there now a political check on him with a Democratic House and -- you know, which -- I mean I think -- I mean having written about this, the -- Nancy Pelosi, Jerry Nadler, the new chairman of the Judiciary Committee, they do not want to go to impeachment. They realize that with the Republican Senate it is impossible.

However, if Robert Mueller gets fired, it will -- they will find it impossible to stop impeachment in the House of Representatives.

BERMAN: And what they can do is they can -- they can call Robert Mueller as a witness in the House Judiciary Committee.

TOOBIN: Yes, I don't --

AVLON: Sure.

BERMAN: They can call any FBI agent. They can call any Justice Department official before the House. They may try to dodge it. But then you will see some conflict there.

Toluse, another way to look at -- oh, by the way, the president said conflict of interests. Matt Whitaker, who's the new acting attorney general -- AVLON: Yes.

BERMAN: Was campaign manager for Sam Clovis, who's a witness in the Russia investigation. So --

CAMEROTA: So he should know something about conflict of interest, you say (ph)?

BERMAN: He should know something about conflict of interest.

AVLON: A little bit.

BERMAN: We've been asking, you know, can the president do this? There's another way to look at this, Toluse, which is, maybe the president thinks he must do this. Maybe he thinks Robert Mueller is getting close to something. We know there's been a tremendous amount of activity circling around Roger Stone. We still know that Donald Trump Junior hasn't been contacted in any way by the Mueller team, which could mean that they're asking a lot of questions about him. Maybe he thinks he has to act now.

OLORUNNIPA: We've seen Mueller on a quiet period ahead of these midterm elections. The president has had little visibility into what he -- what Mueller knows and what he has. And I think this move is one way the president will be able to get a better view of what Mueller is up to. He'll be able to -- the president said multiple times, you know, I could run this investigation if I wanted to.

TOOBIN: Sure.

OLORUNNIPA: I could order people fired. This is a way for him to get a better, clear understanding of what Mueller has been doing, what kind of evidence he has. And all of these calls for Whitaker to recuse himself, I don't think it's likely to happen because President Trump was so unhappy with Sessions because he recusing himself.

AVLON: Of course.

CAMEROTA: Just (INAUDIBLE).

AVLON: So he's been very clear. The root of the criticism with Sessions is the Russia probe. Look, those Republican senators who praised Mueller at the outset and then said the integrity of an investigation must be protected. Tom Tillis (ph), who co-sponsored that bill, are they going to get spine or are they going to ring their hands and sit on their hands?

CAMEROTA: OK, we'll find out. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

We do have to get now to our breaking news, because there's been another mass shooting in America. Let's get to the new developments.

[07:00:02] ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BERMAN: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY.