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Starr and Mueller Investigation; Crews Begin Clean-up in California; CNN Hero of the Year. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired December 10, 2018 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: And some of the things that President Trump has said in their various investigations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL CLINTON, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: I did not have sexual relations with that woman.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. President, did you know about the $130,000 payment to Stormy Daniels?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No. No.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So both of those things we know are not true. They're statements that were made in public.

You actually looked into whether statements in public could be impeachable or in some ways an obstruction of justice, correct?

STEPHEN BINHAK, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Yes. And this is an area of law that is highly contested. But, remember, with regard to impeachment, impeachment is what the Senate and the House say it is.

BERMAN: Yes.

BINHAK: If the House says it's an impeachment offense, they can charge it and then the Senate can convict or not. With typical law -- a typical criminal case, it's different. With -- in a criminal case you really have to do something to impact the investigation and you have to do it with corrupt intent. And so what you have in a criminal case is you can say things publicly, if you say them in order to influence what people say in the grand jury or if you tell people to lie in the grand jury or if you do things to have a corrupt impact on the investigation. So it's a little harder in a criminal case.

But there are -- there are cases where people say things in public and they turn out to be obstruction of justice.

BERMAN: So, Kenneth Starr, and you were working for an independent counsel, which is a different thing than a special counsel here.

BINHAK: There -- BERMAN: What do you see as the impact of those differences here?

BINHAK: Very different things and very important difference. Remember, under the special Counsel Act, Ken Starr was essentially the attorney general of the United States for all matters Clinton. He did not have to answer back to the Justice Department. Robert Mueller does answer back to the Justice Department. He's more like a United States attorney for matters Trump. And so the first instance is that anything that Mueller wants to do, ultimately, bringing an indictment or any major event, he's going to have to go back to the Justice Department and he's going to have to get permission. Ken Starr didn't have to do that. The Special Counsel Act said that he should, in all instances, act in accord with Justice policy.

Now, that could be very important with the indictment of the president. Right now it is the teaching of the Office of Legal Counsel and the policy of the Department of Justice that the president, a sitting president, can't be indicted. That was more of a guideline for Ken Starr, that he could decide, as the boss, to pass up. Less likely that Robert Mueller would do that.

BERMAN: Where are you on that? Do you think a sitting president can be indicted?

BINHAK: Well, I think, as a practical matter, a president can be indicted. Can a grand jury return an indictment to the president? Yes. They can vote an indictment, and an indictment will be returned.

Then the question is, what does the president do? The president can pardon himself immediately. He could fire the prosecutor. He could tell the marshals, you can't arrest me. He could tell the bureau of prisons, you can't hold me, because he runs the executive branch. These are all things that the president could do.

And so I think, naturally, the question isn't, can the president be indicted, the question is more seriously, can the president be impeached for interfering with the indictment in the first place or interfering with the indictment once it happens?

Technically and mechanically, yes, a president, I think, clearly can be indicted. A grand jury can return an indictment against a sitting president.

BERMAN: So having been through this 20 years ago and now watching what is unfolding before our eyes now, what lessons did you learn about impeachment? Impeachment obviously wasn't your decision. You guys were -- did the report and then the House went ahead and impeached the president. But what lessons did you learn then and what advice would you give?

BINHAK: Well, I think it's really important to remember the different scenarios. We were under the Special Counsel Act. The Special Counsel Act required that when the -- when the special counsel had substantial and credible evidence of an impeachable offense, there was a requirement that the special counsel send that to Congress. Mr. Mueller does not have that requirement. And, in fact, the grand jury material that he has collected is secret by virtue of federal rule of civil -- of criminal procedure 6E. So there's a big difference there.

But I think at the end of the day originally the Congress got it right in the Clinton investigation. I think they impeached him. They made a record of his criminal conduct. He committed a felony. And then there was a political decision during the trial that that wasn't enough to remove him as president.

And so I think that it's OK to have a -- to have the House return articles of impeachment if the president commits a felony, to record that activity. And I still think it's OK if the -- if the Senate doesn't remove because there's a record of it and then there's been political accountability. Of course, if the Senate removes, then you'd have a new president.

BERMAN: Stephen Binhak, it's a fascinating perspective. Sort of the low bar for political impeachment there, which is different than a lot of people hope, but a really, really interesting perspective. Appreciate it.

Alisyn.

BINHAK: Thank you so much for having me.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: OK, John, stories of sacrifice and survival continue to emerge from what's left of Paradise, California, after those deadly wildfires.

[08:35:07] CNN's Bill Weir has been there and he has a live report for us, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Crews in hazmat suits are starting to clear out the toxic debris and rubble from California's deadly wildfire. Two hundred and forty square miles of charred homes and melted cars are all that is left in the town of Paradise. That monumental clean-up effort is expected to take at least a year. But despite all of that, it could have been worse.

And CNN's Bill Weir is live in Paradise, California, with more.

Oh, my gosh, the moonscape behind you, it just looks, you know, like an apocalypse, Bill.

BILL WEIR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, and this was what's left of a convenience store that literally melted down to the dirt, Alisyn. It's been just over a month since what they suspect was a power line that touched this thing off, igniting this just bone-dry chaparral and trees here after six years of drought in California. But now, as the residents of Paradise brace for sifting through of what's left of their lives, a lot of both first responders and scientists are drawing, connecting the dots between what happened here and the national climate assessment that says, in the future, we must brace for more of this, hotter, more intense fires, a more flammable world.

[08:40:19] (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) WEIR (voice over): A month ago it was Paradise. But after the deadliest American wildfire in 100 years, it is now mostly ash and rubble and melted metal with 85 souls lost and thousands homeless. This Camp Fire is the costliest in California history. But if not for the pure heroes of helpers, both in and out of uniform, the death toll could have been so much worse, like Butte County Sheriff's Deputy Paul Murlee (ph), who activated his body camera --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, that's not good.

WEIR: Not sure he'd even survive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can we get in?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, come on.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE).

SHERIFF KORY HONEA, BUTTE COUNTY SHERIFF'S OFFICE: He honestly believed that he was recording the last moments of his life. And, in his mind he thought that perhaps the video would survive.

WEIR: But somehow all first responders survived.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I found an elderly woman standing on the side of the road. And I only found her because I got tangled in some power lines that I had to cut.

WEIR: And somehow they helped the city of 27,000 evacuate or shelter in place, surrounded by blowing flames, on gridlocked roads and thanks to melting pipes, no water.

SIMS HAWKINS, BATTALION CHIEF, CAL FIRE BUTTE COUNTY: As I opened my door, the embers are blowing inside my truck. I'm thinking my truck's going to catch on fire. Shut the door. Run to the screaming I hear. I mean it was an elderly couple cuddling each other.

WEIR: There are thousands of stories like this, making Paradise a symbol of community sacrifice and survival.

The biggest clean-up in state history is underway. And when the lines are up and safe, neighbors will be back up and safe, neighbors will be back helping neighbors sift through what's left.

WEIR (on camera): But those who study fire and water, wind and climate say Paradise should be a warning. In fact, on Black Friday, while this fire was still burning, the Trump administration put out the most frightening climate forecast in American history. Over 300 scientists from NASA, NOAA, the Pentagon, Smithsonian all agreeing that unless things change, this is just the beginning.

WEIR (voice over): But when asked about the report --

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's fine.

WEIR: And it's prediction of economic devastation. TRUMP: Yes, I don't believe it. No, no, I don't believe it.

DR. FAITH KEARNS, SCIENTIST, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA WATER INSTITUTE: You know, climate change doesn't really care if you believe in it or not, right? It's reality. We have gravity. We have climate change.

WEIR: Dr. Faith Kearns is a scientist at the University of California.

DON HANKINS, PROFESSOR, CALIFORNIA STATE UNIVERSITY CHICO: Yes, we are seeing larger fires.

WEIR: And Don Hankins teaches the geography of fire at Cal State Chico. They both agree that California is also paying for the sin of building into the wilderness with no regard for natural cycles.

WEIR (on camera): But I suppose the lesson is, if you don't have a lot of little fires throughout the seasons, you're going to have some really big ones.

HANKINS: That's right. That's right. And the little fires, if you can imagine checker-boarding a landscape with a lot of little fires, it could really do a lot to minimize those bigger fires later.

WEIR (voice over): There are around 130 million dead trees in California. Controlled burning or cutting them would cost billions. But the risk of leaving them to burn wild is anyone's guess.

HONEA: One of the problems we have as part of human nature is that, one, we rely upon our past experiences to predict how things are going to go forward. And so I've talked to a lot of citizens who have said, yes, we were aware of fires, but they were always able to stop them on the ridge before they got there. And so I think it engenders this false sense of security.

KEARNS: A lot of natural hazards have been viewed that way as sort of through the lens of history. And now it's much more like, uh, we can't really rely on history as a guide anymore.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I believe that, you know, from when I started, the fires that we see on a regular basis are much more -- they're larger. They're more destructive. And the future generation moving forward, they have a very dangerous job ahead of them.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEIR: Much the way nervous flyers check the exits when boarding a plane, I'll tell you, I've heard from Northern California who are now checking the exits of their towns that live in these mountains, Alisyn. It is a -- it is a scary new normal up here.

BERMAN: Probably a smart thing to do, Bill, I have to say, given the circumstances and given where we appear headed, you need to know.

WEIR: Absolutely.

CAMEROTA: Bill, thank you very much for all that reporting. BERMAN: All right, so get a dose of inspiration from a doctor who takes care to a whole new level. Meet CNN's Hero of the Year. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:49:01] (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "CNN HERO OF THE YEAR": Ladies and gentlemen, the 2018 CNN Hero of the Year is --

COOPER AND KELLY RIPA: Dr. Ricardo Pun-Chong.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: It was a big moment last night for Dr. Ricardo Pun-Chong, who was named CNN's Hero of the Year.

Dr. Pun-Chong provides free housing, meals and support for sick children and their families while they undergo treatment in Peru.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. RICARDO PUN-CHONG, 2018 CNN HERO OF THE YEAR: Thank you for my volunteers that help this 10 years at our shelter. Thank you for all the people that knock the door and give us rice or beans or some money.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[08:50:01] CAMEROTA: Joining us now is Dr. Ricardo Pun-Chong.

Doctor, great to see you this morning. Congratulations.

DR. RICARDO PUN-CHONG, CNN HERO OF THE YEAR: Thank you so much.

CAMEROTA: What was that moment like last night? What did this mean for you?

PUN-CHONG: Well, I was so excited. I don't have words to explain what I feel really. First, I think I'm going to fall down. And --

CAMEROTA: Fall over?

PUN-CHONG: Yes. But then I saw the people, and saw my friend there and said, yes, you did it. You did it. So it was great. It was great.

BERMAN: Tell us about this shelter. Because the work you're doing is such a great need in Peru. PUN-CHONG: Yes. Well, you know, the government gives the patients the

treatment free. The cancer, the leukemia, for example, that is the first cancer in kids, the first step of treatment, it's about six months. So they might be there in Lima almost six months without moving.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh. PUN-CHONG: So they slept on the floors or near the church or near the

parks. So we decided to rent a house to help them. And that's it.

CAMEROTA: I mean and some of them come from, obviously, very rural areas, very poor areas.

PUN-CHONG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: They make the journey to Lima to get treatment. But then -- and it's wonderful, of course, that the government provides the treatment, but then what about the food and the shelter?

PUN-CHONG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And that's when you guys come in.

And I know that you have also said that it can't just be a place that provides food and shelter. It also has to provide healing and the cure. So what do you do in your shelter that is special for the families?

PUN-CHONG: Well, really we play, we have fun. We don't have a TV because we want the children to be creative, yes, to play, to jump, to finally laugh. And that's it. (INAUDIBLE). Once they paint my car. They used my car as a blackboard.

CAMEROTA: And what did you think when you came out and you saw your car really painted?

PUN-CHONG: That was wonderful. It was wonderful. You know, there are kids in my shelter. That's wonderful. I love it.

BERMAN: One of thing that was so inspiring to me last night is one of the first things you talked about wasn't that you won but what you're going to do now that you have become the CNN Hero of the Year with the money that you're going to (INAUDIBLE).

PUN-CHONG: Yes, you know, two years ago, (INAUDIBLE), the major of our district in (INAUDIBLE), in Lima, they gave us land, 6,800 meters, to build a new shelter. So we are going to use this $100,000 to start it. And we can triple our support.

CAMEROTA: And how did you get like this? How did you become selfless? Why aren't you just wanting to make as much money and become as successful as you, in your own life? Why did you want to open your arms like this?

PUN-CHONG: I asked God 11 years ago, I was -- well, I used to go every day to church, always. And 11 years ago I asked God to explain to me what I have to do because I didn't know my mission here in this world. So I asked, you want me to be a priest, a missionary or what? What do you want to do? And, well, I have it.

CAMEROTA: You got the answer.

PUN-CHONG: I have. (INAUDIBLE). CAMEROTA: Wow!

PUN-CHONG: So, I'm doing what I feel, and I think it's OK.

BERMAN: Dr. Ricardo Pun-Chong, I have to say, it was so inspiring to see you up there surrounded by so many other people doing amazing things. And the admiration you all have for each other, it was inspiring.

PUN-CHONG: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Thank you so much for being here, doctor. Great to talk to you and hear about your mission.

PUN-CHONG: Thank you. And continue your dreams. Please dream, always dream. You -- believe in you. And you know you can do it.

CAMEROTA: That's a wonderful message.

BERMAN: You're proof of it.

PUN-CHONG: And I have a present for you.

CAMEROTA: Oh, good, let's see that. You're not supposed to bring us presents.

PUN-CHONG: Yes.

CAMEROTA: What is it?

PUN-CHONG: It's a scarf.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

BERMAN: Thank you very much.

CAMEROTA: (INAUDIBLE).

PUN-CHONG: (INAUDIBLE), yes.

CAMEROTA: Is the name of the shelter.

Thank you.

PUN-CHONG: (INAUDIBLE) in Peru and it's made of recycled bottles.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh.

BERMAN: Thank you so much.

CAMEROTA: Thank you so much. Thank you for all that you do.

BERMAN: And congratulations for everything.

PUN-CHONG: Thank you so much. BERMAN: So one of our other favorite moments from last night's events,

a pair of canine heroes posed for their close-up. Wow. "The Good Stuff" is next.

CAMEROTA: It was love. We'll explain.

BERMAN: Yes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:58:53] BERMAN: It's time now for "The Good Stuff."

CNN Heroes also honored a pair of dogs who are helping our nation's veterans. You will remember Sully, President George H.W. Bush's service dog until the end of his life. Sully met Tom last night on the red carpet. Tom is a service dog for CNN Hero Chris Stout (ph). We've got a couple of snapshots of their encounter. You can see, there's clear affection there.

CAMEROTA: Yes. This -- I mean, oh my gosh, these dogs were so adorable. And, John, I mean this was your highlight, I feel, of the night. There were all sorts of celebrities there, but you were more excited about Sully.

BERMAN: Yes, no, totally. I mean Sully actually was sitting in the crowd for much of the event. And what do you do when you see a celebrity?

CAMEROTA: You grab a selfie.

BERMAN: You take a selfie.

CAMEROTA: You take a Sully selfie.

BERMAN: I took a selfie. There's me with Sully in the background there.

CAMEROTA: Sully seems embarrassed to be in your selfie.

BERMAN: No, Sully was totally psyched to meet me. Totally engaged.

CAMEROTA: Was he? Was he?

BERMAN: Yes.

We should note, Sully was there last night because George H.W. Bush's granddaughter, Lauren Bush, was part of the event last night and presented for us. And it was really great all the way around.

CAMEROTA: Oh, my gosh, it was so wonderful. You and I are still intoxicated with inspiration.

BERMAN: And hung over.

CAMEROTA: And tired.

[09:00:00] But on that note, CNN "NEWSROOM" begins right now.