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Trump Views Impeachment as 'Real Possibility,' Source Says; Accused Russian Spy Now Cooperating with Prosecutors. Aired 7-7:30a ET

Aired December 11, 2018 - 07:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's going to continue to expand.

[07:00:05] SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R), LOUISIANA: I can't imagine basing any kind of prosecution on the word of Mr. Cohen.

SEN. MARK WARNER (R), VIRGINIA: There's not going to be a rush to judgment here. We're going to put together an impenetrable case.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The most important part of this letter is that we are about country and not party.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It smacks of trying to cast a pall on the Senate that somehow they're not acting in the best interests of the country.

DAVID AXELROD, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Nobody wants this job. There's only one person who controls what happens in that White House.

ANTHONY SCARAMUCCI, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: The president needs somebody that is not going to alter their behavior when he enters the room.

REP. MARK MEADOWS (R), NORTH CAROLINA: Certainly, I'm favorably inclined to have a discussion with the president.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is NEW DAY with Alisyn Camerota and John Berman.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to your NEW DAY.

This will be quite a week for the White House. Today begins days of legal proceedings that could lead to more revelations in the Russia investigation.

A source tells CNN that President Trump now thinks it is a real possibility that he could be impeached when Democrats take over the House. So that's a political issue.

Legally, experts say the president could face indictment if he were out of office. It's complicated.

Here's what we now know. Sixteen Trump associates had contacts with Russians during the campaign or the transition. Yesterday, we thought it was 14. Now today it is 16 on your screen. And the possibility that the Mueller probe could even expose more.

So key Republicans, though, say they do not care. Senator Orrin Hatch went so far to say, quote, "OK, but I don't care. All I can say is he's doing a good job as president," end quote.

The same cannot be said for 44 former senators. In a "Washington Post" op-ed, they warn that we are entering, quote, "a dangerous period," and they urge current senators to put country ahead of partisanship. We'll speak to one of them.

BERMAN: Meanwhile, it was a new concern for some powerful Americans and political groups, including the NRA. A source tells CNN that accused Russian spy Maria Butina is now working with federal prosecutors after agreeing to a plea deal.

Butina is said to have cozied up to powerful figures to push Russian interests, even asking then-candidate Trump a question at a campaign event in 2015. Her appearance in court tomorrow is one of several events this week that could shed more light on the Russia investigation.

Here's just a look at some of them. Today, former national security adviser Michael Flynn will ask a judge for no jail time in a sentencing memo. There's a hearing in Paul Manafort's federal case as prosecutors explain the lies they say he told that torpedoed his plea deal.

Then tomorrow Michael Cohen will learn his sentence for his campaign finance and business crimes in New York, you know, the one where he says the president ordered him to pay off a porn star to keep their alleged affair secret.

And new this morning a CNN poll shows that 50 percent of Americans think the Mueller investigation is likely to implicate the president in wrongdoing. Overall, the president's approval rating now stands at 39 percent.

Joining us now, Jeffrey Toobin, Phil Mudd, Jackie Kucinich.

Phil, I want to start with you -- actually, that's a head fake. Jeffrey --

CAMEROTA: Ow.

BERMAN: -- I want to start with you if I can right there. That wasn't even intentional, though it had the effect I was going for.

CAMEROTA: It did.

BERMAN: Look, even with this calendar of events you see, one hearing after another, one memo after another, even with these 16 Russians known to have made an outreach -- or 16 people in the Trump orbit known to have been contacted by the Russians in the campaign. Senate Republicans have been asked what do you make of all this? What

do you make of the fact that President Trump might very well be indicted, were he not in office. And their collective response, at least as of today, seems to be a shrug or even more than that, "I simply don't care."

Alisyn read what Orrin Hatch said. I want to play you a little more of what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: I don't think he was involved in crimes, but even then, you know, you can make anything a crime under the current laws if you want to. If you want to, you can blow it way out of proportion. You can do a lot of things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: "You can blow it way out of proportion." He's talking specifically about the campaign finance thing, but the bigger picture here is that they're just not budging, Jeffrey.

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Yes, that's true, and I think, you know, the Republican Party as -- as a group, and certainly, it's true for members of the Senate, have said -- made a collective decision that we're not going to change our minds about anything until they're -- all of these developments are wrapped up, until there's a Mueller report, and then we have to decide whether to throw Donald Trump over the side. I think that is very unlikely.

The Republican Party, as John Boehner said not long ago, is the Trump party today; and they are going going down with the ship if the ship is going down. I think if you look at Donald Trump's popularity within the Republican Party, within the voters, it's still very high and the Republican politicians are -- are following along.

CAMEROTA: So, Phil, more evidence, of course, will come out. We know from the sentencing memo with Cohen that Mueller believes and states affirmatively that Cohen was directed by Individual 1, we know to be Donald Trump, to commit the campaign finance law.

[07:05:09] So we've heard from our experts, I believe you, that he would never do that with a single source. It's not just Michael Cohen's word. He's corroborated it somehow.

So the political winds may shift when other hard evidence is at some point revealed.

PHIL MUDD, CNN COUNTERTERRORISM ANALYST: I think that's correct and that's one reason, if I were advising the Democrats, which would never happen in this planet, I would tell them slow your roll.

Any American today -- and you look at what Republicans have said over the past 24 hours -- is going to see this through a Democrat or Republican lens. The Mueller investigation over the next few months is going to turn up

more information. We don't know, for example, about the extent of Roger Stone's interactions, both with the president and with Russians. We've only got a window onto that.

I'm going to tell you that Mueller is going to -- going to give us an indication not only of what happened in terms of interacting -- interactions with the Russians that give us a more complete picture; but it's going to give either ammunition to the Democrats or ammunition to the Republicans.

So I think the picture will get a lot clearer. We still don't know a lot, but the people we haven't heard about -- Stone, Jared Kushner, Don Jr. -- those are the people who are -- we're going to learn about from Mueller, and we're going to learn whether or not there's enough ammunition here to go forward in the Congress. I don't think there is yet.

BERMAN: So Jackie, what's interesting about what Phil is saying is this headline. Jim Acosta is reporting that the president is worried now that he will be impeached, that he might be impeached by a Democratic House.

The interesting thing is we actually heard the president say that or speculate about that on the campaign trail before the midterm election. It seems to me that he may be saying that, because he's trying to rally his base.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I don't know that he's worried. I mean, I think that seeing it as a real possibility is different than being worried. That sometimes works well for presidents, as we know from Bill Clinton.

BERMAN: Jackie, how do you see it?

JACKIE KUCINICH, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, right. And so I think what the president's calculation is, is this could be good for him going into an election. It looks like the Democrats are attacking him.

Look, he's done a really good job of tearing down Mueller and the Mueller report. Look at his approval ratings. Look at the report's approval ratings, particularly among Republicans, which is why I think you see these Republican senators standing firm with the president.

Unless it starts affecting their own political fortunes or the political fortunes of the Senate, I think you're going to see them continue to hold firm and use the idea of impeachment to rally the Republican base and to make sure that they stand firm with the president.

TOOBIN: You know, just if I can respond to something brother Mudd said, you know, slowing the roll is a great idea for everyone involved here.

You know, they're -- the Democrats are not stupid.

KUCINICH: Right.

TOOBIN: They are not pushing impeachment while it is impossible to get 67 votes in the Senate. They are just never going to do that. They saw what happened in 1998 when Republicans pushed impeachment with no prospect of success in the Senate.

We need to find out what the underlying facts are. These court hearing cases are coming out. Journalists are doing their work. All of that is a good process, but, you know, a debate about impeachment at this point is premature on both sides.

KUCINICH: But I do think that Democrats are going to -- particularly in the House are going to be fighting with their progressive base who do want to see an impeachment, and that's going to be up to -- well, we think Nancy Pelosi to keep that part of her caucus in check.

CAMEROTA: Right. That will be --

TOOBIN: There is no constituency in the core of the Democratic Party in Congress --

KUCINICH: I don't disagree with you, Jeffrey. I'm just saying that this is going to be a pressure that they're going to feel.

TOOBIN: I don't think that pressure is very strong. The people know that impeachment is going nowhere at the moment. I mean, in the Senate. And it's just -- it's just not worth it.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, that's why I find Orrin Hatch's remarks so helpful, because at some point voters are going to have enough information. And they're just going to have to make their own decisions. And if they're OK with Michael Cohen going to prison for a crime that he says was directed by his boss, everybody is going to make their own decisions in the ballot box.

I mean, that's what, I think -- and Orrin Hatch is -- and other Republicans are on the record as saying they don't care now about those things. They really cared in 1999, and now they don't care. And I think that that's just a good -- a good bit of information for people to have.

BERMAN: Let's just read what Orrin Hatch said in 1999 as a button on this discussion.

CAMEROTA: Oh, good. Let's do that.

BERMAN: And then we'll move on. What Orrin Hatch said in 1999 was "Committing crimes of moral turpitude such as perjury and obstruction of justice go to the heart of qualification for public office. These offenses were committed by the chief executive of our country, the individual who swore to faithfully execute the laws of the United States."

1999 Orrin Hatch versus the 2018 Orrin Hatch who said, "I don't care." Full stop.

I want to talk about Maria Butina, if I can.

CAMEROTA: Please.

BERMAN: Who is going to enter a plea deal, apparently plead guilty to various crimes. And Phil Mudd, I want to play for you a moment which Alisyn so rightly said appears in a whole different light now that we're getting this guilty plea. This was Maria Butina asking then- candidate Donald Trump a question about Russia on the campaign trail. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[07:10:10] MARIA BUTINA, ACCUSED OF ESPIONAGE: Do you want to continue the politics of sanctions that are damaging of both economies or you have any other ideas?

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin. OK? And I mean, where we have the strength. I don't think you'd need the sanctions. I think that we would get along very, very well. I really believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So that was 2015. Now you have someone who will plead guilty this week, Phil, to not registering as a foreign agent. She's not pleading guilty to being a spy, but not registering as a foreign agent, asking a question at a campaign rally to a president who is the focus, or at least a subject of an investigation --

CAMEROTA: And now through the lens of everything that we know now with all the connections, it's hard to see these things as a coincidence.

MUDD: Yes, but hold on a second here. I don't think you'll see a bunch of interaction between her and the Mueller investigation.

There is one huge picture here that I want to paint. Forget about that it's 2015 and forget about whatever question she asked. Think about this. Everything that's happening around that question.

I want to know if she's fully cooperating, who she spoke with beforehand, who she spoke with after, how they communicated, whether she got paid, how she got paid.

In my business, the spy business, we call that trade craft. I want to understand that trade craft and how the Russians were interacting with this agent to see if I can identify similar trade craft in other cases that might apply to the Mueller investigation.

My bottom line: I don't care what she asked. I want to know what happened before and after to understand her pattern of activity with the Russian intelligence service here in the United States.

TOOBIN: Well, I care what she asked. And -- and I would like to know about Donald Trump's answer because, remember, after Michael Cohen's guilty plea, we know that, at the moment he was answering that question about how he wanted to be nice to Vladimir Putin, he was negotiating with the Russian government to try to make hundreds of millions of dollars from Moscow real estate, which is controlled by Vladimir Putin.

So, I mean, the stories come together; and I think that question and answer and why did he call on her out of all the journalists, what was the background there, that is part of the story that I would certainly like to know the answer to.

CAMEROTA: I agree, Jeffrey. I agree. I mean, again, maybe everything is just a wild coincidence, but was she a plant? Did he know that she was in the audience? Did he know she was going to ask a question about Russia? Was that a good opportunity for him to talk about how he wanted to be closer to Vladimir Putin while he was negotiating for the Moscow Trump Tower?

I mean, you know, some -- there are some untied threads here, Jackie, that, again, with this week, with all of these different sentencing memos and plea deals we might learn more about.

KUCINICH: Right. I mean, with all of these plea deals, it feels like we have -- we are getting more pieces of the puzzle; but we don't have the clear picture. But all of those questions that you just asked, they merit answers, for sure.

Also her ties to the National Rifle Association is something else that, you know, deserves -- there are a lot of questions that are unanswered there, as well. And they also have a lot of influence with politicians across the board.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Jackie, can I just ask you, because you are in Washington and we were talking about Orrin Hatch before, in light of all this and the calendar that we've seen for this week, just one event after another in the Mueller probe, and these are just the ones we know.

Look, we don't know if there's something else coming out in the next two weeks. Roger Stone, Jerome Corsi still hanging out there.

KUCINICH: Right.

BERMAN: How do Republicans really feel about all this? Is this a time when they're skipping in the hallways and they're, you know, singing songs? I'm psyched to be here on the job?

CAMEROTA: Well, in terms of the president, there are two main answers that you get. You get no collusion, and you get look over there. I haven't read this yet. And so you hear a lot of "I don't want to talk about this."

So there is a little bit of a feeling of slogging until the end for Republicans, because they want to talk about pretty much anything else than what's going on with the White House and Russia.

CAMEROTA: And then Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi will be meeting with the president today. That will be all sorts of new fodder.

KUCINICH: Not to mention the impending government shutdown.

BERMAN: Merry Christmas.

KUCINICH: Merry Christmas.

CAMEROTA: Thank you all. Great conversation.

BERMAN: So you just mentioned this budget battle on Capitol Hill is heating up. The big debate centers around border wall funding. What will Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer offer the president today? That's something we're going to keep our eye on.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[07:18:30] BERMAN: Republicans shrugging their shoulders at the allegations laid out by prosecutors that directly implicate President Trump, possibly in two crimes, when he directed illegal hush-money payments to two women during the 2016 campaign to buy their silence about alleged affairs. That is what the documents say.

Joining me now is Republican Congressman Jim Renacci. He serves on the House Ways and Means Committee.

Congressman, thanks so much for being with us. I want to read you some of a "Washington Post" op-ed from 44 former senators, it says. "It is our shared view that we are entering a dangerous period in other critical moments in our history when constitutional crises have threatened our foundations. It has been the Senate that has stood in the defense of our democracy. Today is once again such a time. We urge current and future senators to be steadfast and zealous guardians of our democracy by ensuring the partisanship or self-interest not replace national interest."

Leave aside the Senate elitism there. You are about to be a former member of Congress. These former members of Congress are basically saying put partisanship aside as you assess what you are seeing from the Mueller investigation. Is that good advice?

REP. JIM RENACCI (R), OHIO: Well, first off, I think we should put partisanship aside on all the decisions we make. I mean, it's one of the biggest problems I've heard here in eight years, is that partisanship gets involved in too many of our decision-making.

And in the end, we should take the partisanship out and do what's right for the American people. So I'm always in agreement that -- let's get partisanship out of some of our decisions. Let's make sure we protect our Constitution and our democracy.

BERMAN: What is your advice to members of the House, both Republicans and Democrats specifically, in dealing with these revelations that are now coming to light?

[07:20:06] Sixteen people close to the president who had contact with the Russians during the campaign. This document from the Southern District of New York which says that the president directed and coordinated with Michael Cohen to break the law. How would you advise members in the House to handle this?

RENACCI: Well, I've said all along we need to let the investigation just come to a conclusion, although I do believe, after two years, the conclusion should be near.

I also believe that -- let's see what all comes out. Let's see what all plays out, and let's not make any decisions in advance. Too many people want to make decisions early. The partisanship gets involved way too early.

Let's let everything ride out. Let's get Mueller to finish up his case. He's been looking at this for two years. Clearly, there's no collusion, but let's see what the facts have and let's move on.

BERMAN: Well, can I just say -- can I just say we don't know if there's -- there's no clearly yet -- clearly, they have not laid out exact examples in documentation of what you might call collusion.

However, there are those 16 points of contacts, there's this 2015 meeting for a Russian seeking political synergy, or someone might call collusion. There is the Trump Tower meeting where Don Jr. was promised dirt on Hillary Clinton, to which he responded, "If that's what it is, I love it."

So it depends how you define collusion. What we have not had yet, as you say, is Robert Mueller tell us he's found collusion.

RENACCI: Well, and absolutely. But I think if Robert Mueller had already found collusion, this investigation would have wrapped up very quickly. I do think that right now we're looking at all kind of pieces outside of the specific job that he was really hired to come on board for, which was to see if there was collusion, see if there was an issue. And let's face it: the American people want to be able to move past this, as well.

So, again, I think it's time to wrap this up. I've said this for the last year. He's had two years. I was a business guy for 28 years before I came here. By now you'd be telling your attorneys, "Let's wrap this up and see where we're at, because it is costing the American people money."

BERMAN: It is. I just want to -- again, on the notion that everything he's found is outside the issue of Russia, he did invite -- indict 12 Russians for hacking the DNC and then leaking it to WikiLeaks to release to the American public.

He did have Michael Cohen plead guilty to lying to Congress about what he said about dealings with Russia well into the campaign and the fact that he was telling the president about it.

So it's not as if there's nothing having to do with Russia here. Correct?

RENACCI: Well, again, what I've said is he is now looking at all of this. He's had two years. Let's bring it to a conclusion. And I think that's what I would advise anybody, whether you're Republican or Democrat. Bring it to a conclusion, get this moving on.

The American people want to see our country moving forward. And as I traveled the state of Ohio for the last nine months, they're very frustrated. They want to see our country move forward. They like, in many ways, what this president is doing; but they also see a problem that too often politics are getting in the way. Democrats want to talk about impeachment. Republicans want to talk about border wall issues.

Again, let's just move this forward. That's the frustration I see when I'm out, you know, in real America, as I call it ,outside the Beltway.

BERMAN: So the president needs a new chief of staff. What do you think about that job in the abstract? What would be your reservations about taking that job?

RENACCI: Well, look, I think it's an honor always to be the chief of staff for the president. I think -- but the chief of staff is a tough job. You are constantly, you know, either blocking or tackling. You're the guy or gal in between the president and many people trying to get involved in issues with him.

So it's a -- it's not an easy job, and that's why chief of staffs really don't last that long in the White House. If you go back to past presidents, you know, one or two a cycle every two years, it's a very tough job.

But this president will find somebody. There are a lot of people like myself that -- that like the direction that he's moving the country forward on. And I think those will be the people that step up and step into that position.

BERMAN: Mark Meadows of the Freedom Caucus is said to be one of the people that the president has his eye on. And he hasn't ruled out that possibility. Is he the type of person that you think can bring the White House together and help bring the country together?

RENACCI: The person I think that needs to be in that position is somebody who can work with both sides of the aisle. I do believe that's important.

I mean, one of the things that I've said for the last eight years in Washington is I have a bipartisan breakfast that I'm going to right after this interview, and what we try and do is work together.

So I think whoever is in that position has to be able to realize, when he comes over to Capitol Hill or where people come to the White House, he has to be -- he or she has to be nonpartisan and try to bring people together; because that's the only way we're going to move our country forward.

BERMAN: I've got to say, and you can love what the Freedom Caucus does, but it doesn't seem that their mission statement is necessarily to work together in bipartisanship. Are you suggesting that Mark Meadows, who has driven the Freedom Caucus for the last few years, might not be the right person to bring folks together.

RENACCI: Well, again, that will be the president's decision, not mine.

BERMAN: What's your view of it, though?

RENACCI: I like Mark, he's a good individual. He has his principles that he holds pretty strong to, which I understand.

[06:25:07] But in the end, the president's going to have to pick somebody who I really believe is -- understands that there are Republicans and Democrats out there. And he needs somebody, in my opinion -- again, only my opinion -- that can work with both sides.

BERMAN: OK. Is that Mark Meadows?

RENACCI: Well, you know, again, I know Mark very well. He's a good guy. I don't know how much he does work across the aisle, but I do know there are a lot of individuals that can; and Mark probably could, as well.

BERMAN: Where is the deal to be made on the budget? We have, I think, until December 22 to get this funding without a partial government shutdown, Democrats offering $1.3 billion for border security, which would include fencing. Where is there a way to make a deal between that and the $5 billion the president wants for the wall?

RENACCI: Well, right now we're in political decisions, again, which is always so frustrating. I mean, the difference between 1.3 and 5 is no small when you think we spend $4 trillion a year.

So again, I think this has become a political issue. Nancy Pelosi has to worry about getting the 218. She's got to try and make sure that her left flank is with her, so she's got to be a little bit cautious. I've got to tell you, if it wasn't for that, this deal would be done already. We'd be home.

I mean, that's the other problem I've always had. We move too quickly just to get to Christmas break, instead of moving in a pace to get things accomplished.

But this deal would have been done already if it wasn't for Nancy Pelosi needing the 218, because we're talking about a small amount.

BERMAN: Well, but didn't the president have a chance to make this deal also, and the president couldn't bring his folks to it? It was Republicans who voted, by and large, against -- or many Republicans voted against the various deals that were put on the floor, as well.

RENACCI: Well, look, that's why I said politics gets in the way of a lot of things. I do believe that we have to make decisions moving our country forward.

Sometimes that means you only get 80 percent of -- 80 percent of what you want, not 100 percent of what you want. And I do blame both Republicans and Democrats when it comes to that. And that's, in the end, we have to be able to move things forward.

But that's why the difference between 1.5 is so small that let's move this forward, let's get this issue off the table, and let's start working toward the best interests of the American people.

BERMAN: We'll let you go to that bipartisan breakfast that you're headed to. I hope it is well-attended, frankly. Jim Renacci of Ohio, thanks so much for being with us.

RENACCI: Thank you.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, John.

How much prison time will Michael Cohen get this week for a crime that he says the president directed him to commit?

One former prosecutor has experience with the judge who will be deciding that. He's here next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)