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David Bossie may be Chosen as Next White House Chief of Staff; Orrin Hatch Comments on Documents Related to Trump Campaign Finance Violations; Russian Operative Maria Butina Agrees to Cooperate with U.S. Prosecutors; Source: Trump "Super Pissed" About Chief of Staff Mess. Aired 8-8:30a ET

Aired December 11, 2018 - 8:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:00:00] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: -- they say that Putin had cozied up to powerful figures in the U.S. to push Russian interests, even asking then candidate Donald Trump a question at a campaign event in 2015 that now looks more curious in 2018's light. Her appearance in court is one of several events this week that could shed new light on the Russia investigation.

So today former national security adviser Michael Flynn will ask a judge for no jailtime in his sentencing memo. We could learn more about what he offered. Plus, there's a hearing in Paul Manafort's federal case as prosecutors will lay out the lies they say torpedoed his plea deal. Then tomorrow Michael Cohen will learn his sentence for his campaign finance and business crimes in New York.

OK, so there's a lot to get to.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: It is like a Russia Advent calendar. Each day that passes you open up another little thing and then something else happens. There is a new sentencing memo or an investigation going on.

CAMEROTA: That is the service we provide. CNN politics reporter and editor at large Chris Cillizza, CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and CNN senior political reporter Nia-Malika Henderson, great to have all of you.

OK, let's start with the David Bossie news that Jake is saying. That makes perfect sense. Of course he wants somebody who can handle, who knows how to navigate their way through an impeachment process if that happens.

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL REPORTER: I think that's right, somebody who knows Washington, somebody who knows how the investigative arm of the House will work, somebody he knows. And remember, David Bossie was someone who was left behind. He was somebody who was always on the outside of the White House looking in. Still very much in contact with the Trump circle, certainly with Corey Lewandowski who he wrote a book with, and somebody still in touch with the president as well.

You have a feeling this is a president who initially went with establishment picks in a lot of these slots, Reince Priebus at first, and then John Kelly, and then when Nick Ayers, who in some ways was also an establishment pick. And so now he's going with someone who he's more simpatico with.

CAMEROTA: Maybe.

HENDERSON: We'll see what happens.

BERMAN: Jeffrey Toobin --

JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN CHIEF LEGAL ANALYST: Wait. Wait. Wait a second. Wait a second.

BERMAN: I was going to say, Jeffrey Toobin, if I had told 1998 Jeffrey Toobin that David Bossie was being rumored as a possible chief of staff for the White House, what would 1998 Jeffrey Toobin had said?

TOOBIN: I would have said that's as likely as Donald Trump becoming president of the United States. What are you, crazy?

(LAUGHTER)

TOOBIN: David Bossie worked for Dan Burton, who was the chairman of the House Oversight Committee who famously shot a watermelon to recreate the suicide of Vince Foster. It was crazy town in Dan Burton's world. Dan Burton got rid of David Bossie. That's how crazy David Bossie was in those days. He was accused of altering transcripts that the committee released. These were fringe figures of fringe figures. And the idea that the White House chief of staff is going to someone that far from even the conservative mainstream, forget the mainstream mainstream, is just a sign of how Donald Trump is directing his presidency.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: I would just add, look at the candidates who have either expressed interest or we think Donald Trump is interested in since Nick Ayers. Matt Whitaker, we know his background. Mark Meadows? I mean, I watched the interview with you, John, in the last hour.

BERMAN: Great questions.

CILLIZZA: Man, really nailed it.

(LAUGHTER)

CILLIZZA: He was doing everything he could say to say this guy, Mark Meadows, has no history of working together. He's built his entire political legacy on sort of, their view, taking the ball and go home politics. And now Bossie? Those are the three people that are the most Trumpy out of all this.

Nia is right. Nick Ayers, I was always surprised. Nick Ayers ran Tim Pawlenty's ill-fated presidential campaign. Nick Ayers ran the Republican Governors Association. He's not a Trump figure at all. So this idea that that would be the person -- these are now all much more in the line of let Trump -- I don't know what this wouldn't be different than what it's been in the last few years, but let Trump be Trump, right? Bossie would absolutely 100 percent do that. This is the guy brought the Citizens United case. This is the reason that we have the campaign finance system that we have, long time, very conservative activists. Mark Meadows is the head of a rump group of House conservatives that drove John Boehner out of the speakership and probably led Paul Ryan to walk away as well.

CAMEROTA: I think you're making the case perfectly for why Donald Trump would want them.

CILLIZZA: This is my point. This is why I think those two make a ton of sense, as does Whitaker, because what are the two words that you always hear in any Matt Whitaker profile -- fiercely loyal to Donald Trump. We know he likes that. So I think actually these three make a lot of sense given what we know about Donald Trump and how he wants to govern.

CAMEROTA: Let's wait to see if there is an announcement today about chief of staff and the next pick.

[08:05:00] But in the meantime, the big announcement that was not made verbally from Robert Mueller but was in the sentencing memo for Michael Cohen was that Michael Cohen says he was directed by Donald Trump to commit the campaign finance laws, Jeffrey, of the hush money to the two women who say that they had affairs with Donald Trump. Orrin Hatch was asked about this revelation, Senator Orrin Hatch. Manu Raju asked him if this change moves the needle for him. Here is his response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R) JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: I don't think he was involved in crimes. But even then, you can make anything a crime under the current laws if you want to. You can blow them way out of proportion. You can do a lot of things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Can you make anything a crime, Jeffrey Toobin? And just Orrin Hatch saying, I don't really see anything there.

TOOBIN: Orrin Hatch, who is on his way out of the Senate, about to be replaced by Mitt Romney, has become the most loyal of the most loyal, which is he's an interesting test case, because he used to be, while always conservative, someone who really valued making deals. He worked hard with Ted Kennedy on many pieces of legislation. He has moved where the Republican Party has moved, to be in complete fealty to Donald Trump. This is the dominant ideology of the Republican Party today. It's not about ideology. It is about Donald Trump and whatever he does is fine.

That is true and will be true as long as the Republican Party's voters continue to be as lined up behind Trump as they are. They are still lined up that way, and you see almost no dissent among elected Republican officials about anything Donald Trump has done.

BERMAN: Nia, do you see that budging at all?

HENDERSON: Probably not. And you've heard echoes of this from other people, like Rand Paul essentially saying this is a paperwork error. Other people saying that Obama did this as well, even though we know that that wasn't true at all. There were no porn stars involved with anything that Obama --

CAMEROTA: That was a paperwork error, the Obama one.

HENDERSON: Yes. Exactly a paperwork error.

CILLIZZA: To Nia's, There are a lot of campaign finance violations that are like, well, this was wrongly reported. This is not that. Let's make it clear here. This is six figures of money paid out, according to federal prosecutors, directed and coordinated by the president of the United States to keep two women who alleged affairs silent in the end run of a campaign.

HENDERSON: That's exactly right. And that's the big difference. But if you flash back, and Toobin probably knows this better than I do, you flash back to the Clinton impeachment, obviously you had Democrats lining up fiercely behind Bill Clinton, essentially saying he lied under oath, but it was just lying about sex. It's fine. You had some polling come out around that time as well that basically said that --

TOOBIN: Nia-Malika, I don't think you should be calling me old like that.

(LAUGHTER)

CILLIZZA: Old man Toobin remembers.

TOOBIN: You were like in diapers during the Clinton impeachment.

HENDERSON: I was indeed.

CAMEROTA: Well, Orrin Hatch was there. And there was a time when Orrin Hatch didn't like moral turpitude.

BERMAN: You want a dramatic reading?

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: Dramatic reading of Orrin Hatch, 1999. "Committing crimes of moral turpitude such as perjury and obstruction of justice go to the heart of qualification for public office. These offenses were committed by the chief executive of our country, the individual who swore to faithfully execute the laws of the United States." Thus ends the reading.

TOOBIN: That was then. That was then. That's the explanation. No, it changed. Politicians always change their views somewhat based on the prevailing political currents. But this is really so extraordinary. Remember, Orrin Hatch is a member of the LDS church, someone who is impeccably moral in his personal life, was deeply offended by Bill Clinton's behavior in the presidency. He is not offended by Donald Trump's relationships with Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. It is just a reflection of how much the Republican Party has changed.

CAMEROTA: Well, that's gotten the notice of 44 senators, former senators, 32 of them Democrats, 10 Republicans, two independents who are calling on their current Senate colleagues to stop doing this. And they say, they write in "The Washington Post", these 44, "It is our shared view we are entering a dangerous period and we feel an obligation to speak up about serious challenges to the rule of law, the Constitution, our governing institutions, and our national security." They don't like that senators are saying big whoop about crimes.

CILLIZZA: Gosh, it really feels -- and on top of that, Jim Acosta reporting last night about Trump being worried about impeachment. It kind of feels like that's a little bit of working the referees in advance of the possibility that a Democratic House does impeach Donald Trump after a Mueller report, and then it would go to the Senate. Obviously, you need two-thirds in the Senate, there are 53 Republicans, essentially saying we don't know what the Mueller report is going to find. But it doesn't look great right now for Donald Trump.

[08:10:07] If it is something that really makes clear he has done these things, let's not make this a partisan fight. I would put my two cents in with Nia that I think it is more likely than not to remain a relatively partisan fight because, and we saw this time and again in the last two years, the Republican Party base is going to be with Donald Trump. And these politicians, guess what they like? Still having jobs. And they're worried about losing primaries. Orrin Hatch, Jeff's right, he's leaving. Maybe he's just had a change of heart.

CAMEROTA: But he likes the policies. He says it. I don't care. I like the policies of the president, where he's going.

CILLIZZA: I understand that. But there has to be, and Orrin Hatch has called on this before. There has to be a right and a wrong that is outside of politically good and politically bad. When you say I don't really care if he broke the law because in my mind those laws aren't a big deal, it's a slippery slope.

CAMEROTA: I think that there's a different point, and it's George Conway's point that he was making yesterday, when he said I'm increasingly optimistic that we can do better. In other words, there has got to be someone who has these same policies as Donald Trump, I think is what George Conway is saying, a conservative, who won't be accused of various crimes.

HENDERSON: Yes, but the voters don't agree with George Conway. They like Donald Trump. They are much more in line with what Orrin Hatch said. I think it's telling that with this letter they could only get a handful of former Republican senators to basically call on senators to stand up to Donald Trump.

BERMAN: By the way, my reading of George Conway wasn't that he thinks he could do better in terms of getting a better president. He thinks he can get rid of this president before 2021. George Conway was saying that with the new information coming out, he thinks impeachment is more likely. That was my reading of it.

CAMEROTA: I don't know about that. My reading is that there's got to be a different vessel for all the things he likes, all the different policies he likes.

BERMAN: Maybe we're both right. And one other point, if I can. One, other point, Chris, if I can. To Nia's point there, was talking about voters liking him. We have a new poll out today which shows that the president's approval rating is at 39 percent. So most voters aren't approving.

HENDERSON: Republicans -- yes.

BERMAN: It's 85 percent among Republicans.

Jeffrey, if we can, I don't want to lose sight of another major development in this broad scope, this broad span of things having to do with Russia, with is Maria Butina, who is this operative inside the United States, has agreed to plead guilty to failing to register as a foreign agent. She's not pleading guilty to espionage, but she's been held in custody for a long time now, apparently with ties with Russian intelligence. And it makes us remember this moment from 2015 when she was just miraculously at an event with then candidate Donald Trump and asked a key question. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARIA BUTINA: Do you want to continue the politics of sanctions that are damaging of both economies? Or do you have any other ideas?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I believe I would get along very nicely with Putin, OK? And I mean where we have the strength. I don't think you need the sanctions. I think we that we would get along very, very well. I really believe that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: You find all of this, Jeffrey, to be quite interesting this morning.

TOOBIN: Oh, it is so fascinating, because this was the first time that Donald Trump ever expressed his view that sanctions should be lifted. This is the precise time, as we now know, he was negotiating with the Russian government to try to build Trump Tower in Moscow. So he needed Vladimir Putin's approval, so he's offering -- it seems to me a perfect example of his using his presidential campaign to advance his business interest.

The Butina plea raises all sorts of interest questioning about what were her contacts with the people in the conservative movement or the Trump campaign. We know she was intimately involved with the National Rifle Association. How did money change hands? Who was giving her orders? Who was she in contact with? Fascinating series of questions. She has now agreed to cooperate with prosecutors, which means turn over all her electronics. And was she -- was that question planted? Did she have any contact with the Trump campaign? All of it very interesting. Yet another example of contacts between Russians and people in the conservative movement on the eve of the election.

CILLIZZA: There is just -- you showed the graphic earlier, the 16 people. I feel like you have to keep showing that because it is like, let's go and put the graphic up that Hillary Clinton -- the truth is you're talking about, 16 people including his eldest daughter, his eldest son, Jared Kushner, the campaign chairman, effectively the campaign manager in Paul Manafort.

CAMEROTA: These were not coffee boys.

CILLIZZA: These are senior people, and there is just a lot of them. All that doesn't add up to definite collusion, definite obstruction, but my gosh, it's not normal.

[08:15:05] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Chris, Nia, Jeffrey, thank you for sharing your morning with us.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: And thank you, John.

BERMAN: Where are we going next?

CAMEROTA: I think we're going to do something really, really interesting. We're going to do something very fascinating.

I don't want to spoil it. I don't want to spoil it by telling people what we're going to do next. Just come back, and it's going to be really great.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Sources tell CNN that President Trump is quite annoyed about his struggles to find a new chief of staff after John Kelly will be leaving at the end of the month and Nick Ayers has turned it down. Several names are being floated this morning, but some of them have already said no thanks.

So, what will President Trump's next pick tell us about the role of the chief of staff in this White House?

Joining us now is former White House chief of staff under President Clinton, Mack McLarty.

Mr. McLarty, thanks so much for being here.

MACK MCLARTY, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF UNDER PRESIDENT CLINTON: Alisyn, nice to be with you this morning.

CAMEROTA: OK. So what do you think the chief responsibility of the chief of staff is?

MCLARTY: Well, Andy Card, who was chief of staff to President Bush, likes to say care and feeding the president. I think it's fair to say, Alisyn, each chief of staff has to adapt his style or one day her style to the president and to the passage of the presidency. I think that's what we're seeing here with President Trump.

At the end of the day, the chief of staff has to have a respectful relationship, an ability to communicate and there must be a level of trust between the president and the chief of staff.

[08:20:11] To date, President Trump has not achieved that, at least not for sustained periods of time with his two chiefs of staff. The next one will have to do that.

CAMEROTA: Fair. Let me put up some of the names in consideration. So, Mick Mulvaney, he's busy in the White House, Steve Mnuchin, Congressman Mark Meadows of North Carolina, who is known as an arch conservative and not necessarily reaching across the aisle, Robert Lighthizer, U.S. trade representative.

Chris Christie, that's an interesting pick. Obviously, he goes way back with Donald Trump, but not we heard the kids -- meaning Ivanka and Jared might not be fans. There's Matt Whitaker, who's the acting attorney general. And then, David Bossie who our Jake Tapper is reporting may be the favorite pick because he knows how to navigate through an impeachment.

And so, is one of the roles of chief of staff kind of chief protector of the president?

MCLARTY: Well, the chief of staff position has been called the chief javelin catcher, that is the buffer, or kind of the front line of defense. It's a multifaceted job, not only serving the president, but managing the White House. You've got to focus on domestic, international and political activities.

So, it's very, very demanding, obviously. I think the speculation, the horse race so to speak, it started. Each of those individuals have different backgrounds, different skill sets. I think this particular passage, Alisyn, I think that's important in any presidency because there are passages in a presidency, and they have certain demands, certain unique periods of stress, challenges and opportunities.

I think in this case, the chief of staff would be well-served to have political skills because you are moving toward the re-election, certainly to have some ability to navigate Washington. You are going to have a lot of oversight from the democratically controlled House, so some experience dealing with the Congress. Those are going to be key factors, but you've also got to have hopefully some breadth in terms of international relations as well.

CAMEROTA: Why do you think President Trump is having a hard time filling this position?

MCLARTY: Well, that's almost a self-answering question, I think. But it's a difficult position. I think obviously, the plan was for Nick Ayers to take the position. That seems to be the case, and that's thrown the White House off stride. There wasn't a clear plan B in place when he somewhat unexpectedly it seems decided not to do it.

So I think the president wants to make a thoughtful decision, but he's got to move pretty quickly here. I think a lot of people are saying I'm just not sure I want to serve in this White House, work for this president all things considered. That's a favor consideration on anybody that's thinking about doing this job.

I certainly reflected on that. I think most chiefs of staff before they accept the job do. It's a demanding responsibility and an important one for sure.

CAMEROTA: I'm interested in that, did President Clinton have to convince you to take the job?

MCLARTY: We had to have an extended discussion about it.

CAMEROTA: What were your reservations?

MCLARTY: Well, I already have, was chief executive of a New York stock exchange company and from a personal standpoint, our younger son was finishing his senior year in high school, so there were some family considerations with both of our sons, as well as business considerations. But at the end of the day, you have to have a compatibility with the president.

In my case, I worked with Governor Clinton, helped to establish the new Democratic movement. It is hard to not accept the request of a president who is asking you to help him and support him.

CAMEROTA: So you went to kindergarten with President Clinton.

MCLARTY: We were life-long friends. I never worked in his administration when he was governor. So, this was a new passage.

CAMEROTA: I guess that's my question to you is who do you -- what type of person do you think President Trump should put into this position? Should it be a lifelong loyalist? Should it be somebody who can tell the truth to the president? Should it be somebody who will be able to reach across the aisle? Should it be somebody who could protect him?

I mean, what does -- does this moment called for?

MCLARTY: Well, I think you named some of the characteristics, Alisyn, actually. There has to be compatibility. There has to be a common political philosophy. There has to be loyalty.

And at the end of the day, Alisyn, there has to be a level of trust between the president and his chief of staff and an ability to communicate if that chief of staff is going to serve the president well.

CAMEROTA: So whoever it is, what is your advice to the next chief of staff?

MCLARTY: Well, I think recognize first of all there is some things you can change and some things you can't. I don't think this president is going to change a lot. And I would try, if I were considering this or advising the chief of staff, kind of worth a proverbial cup of coffee, but to have as clear an understanding with president Trump as you could, going into the job.

CAMEROTA: Mack McLarty, we really appreciate your expertise in this matter.

[08:25:03] Thanks so much for joining us.

MCLARTY: Thank you, Alisyn.

BERMAN: What's that laugh? What was your advice to the next chief of staff? It was almost as if his thought bubble was giant handle of Jack Daniels or something along those lines. That's what I said.

CAMEROTA: Yes. He may have cleaned it up for the broadcast for us.

BERMAN: So the president insists the hush money payments made by Michael Cohen were simple, private transactions. But prosecutors say the president directed the illegal payments that violated campaign finance law is a felony. Our legal experts weigh in, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BERMAN: President Trump says the hush money payments his former lawyer Michael Cohen made to Mr. -- to Mr. Trump's alleged mistress amount to nothing more than simple private transactions. But federal prosecutor see them as breaking the law.

Joining us now, CNN chief legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and CNN legal and political commentator, Ken Cuccinelli.

Gentlemen, I'm going to stay out of this discussion because I can't seem to say anything in complete sentences this morning, but also because I'm mostly interested in your perfectives on this.

Ken, I want to start with you. The Southern District of New York took a guilty plea from Michael Cohen. Michael Cohen pleaded guilty to a felony.