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NEW DAY

Breaking with Trump on Russia Sanctions; Shutdown Damage on U.S. Economy; Furloughed Workers Scrambling to Make Ends Meet; Explosion in Syria; New Gillette Ad Challenges Masculinity. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 16, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00] SEN. JOHN KENNEDY (R), LOUISIANA: Have to have all of the stock to control the company. And I just think it's a close case and I can't in good conscience vote to lift sanctions on Deripaska.

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What message does it send that the administration wants to ease some sanctions on someone you just called a gangster?

KENNEDY: Well, I think Secretary Mnuchin honestly believes, and he may be right, that he has negotiated a deal where the oligarch has to give up control of the company. And he may be right. And I'm not knocking Steve. I mean he worked hard on this. But, you know, this is a close case and tie goes to the runner, if you will. And I just -- out of an abundance of caution, I said I'm just -- this guy's bad news. He's a tyrant. He's a pirate. He's a gangster. And he's hurting the Russian people every day and he's trying to hurt America. And I'm not -- we've got him down. I say, let's choke him. I'm not going to let him up.

BERMAN: So if I can shift gears here for a second. Do you know what the White House strategy is to end the government shutdown?

KENNEDY: No, but I was just talking to Senator Warner. I don't think there is a strategy by either President Trump or Mrs. Pelosi. I hitched a ride back from New Orleans to D.C. with the president on Monday. I talked with him, I don't know, an hour or so. I don't think he's budging. I don't think Mrs. Pelosi's budging.

Here's what I wish they'd do, and I bet we could clear this up in two days. If Mrs. Pelosi would appoint someone in whom she has confidence, the president would appoint someone in whom he has confidence, and say, go off and give me a global plan to secure the border. I can tell you what that plan would -- they would come back, if they were in good faith, say, OK, here's what we need. We need to beef up our security at the ports. We need more border agents. We need technology. We need drones. We need more detention bids. And we need, in certain places, a wall.

And then these two people could say, Mr. President, Madam Speaker, here -- you're both getting what you want. We've got to get the government back open. Everybody go to their corners and let's swallow our pride and agree that -- to try this. I think we could wrap it up pretty fast. But I just think they're both so dug in -- I haven't spoken to the speaker, for whom I have great respect -- but I've spoken to the president.

BERMAN: Yes.

KENNEDY: And he -- he is resolute on this.

BERMAN: I do have to ask, given that he said he would own this shutdown now a month ago, do you think it would be incumbent on him to have a strategy to end it?

KENNEDY: Well, I think they both ought to have a strategy. And I think that the president is not going to agree to any sort of deal without a border wall. I mean it looks to me like Speaker Pelosi is not going to agree to any deal with a border wall. And they're not even talking, which tells me they're probably too close to the fight. And if she would appoint someone --

BERMAN: So --

KENNEDY: In whom she has confidence and he would do the same, I think they could work it out in two or three days.

BERMAN: What -- what's your message to the American people now? Because we learned from the White House team of economists that it's having twice as much of an impact on the economy, is twice as bad for the economy that they originally thought, some 800,000 people aren't getting paid. The Coast Guard commandant is telling his people this is the first time that its members have never received paychecks.

You know, what do you tell them about how the government's doing its job?

KENNEDY: Sure. Well, my message to the American people is, nobody wants a shutdown. I don't know a single person up here. Not someone who's in good faith and someone who's not drunk on certainty and virtue. He thinks that we ought to have a shutdown. Everybody wants to open it back up. But border security is important. And for whatever reason the two negotiators here, the president and Mrs. Pelosi, and they're not going to reach an agreement any time soon, if at all. So you've got to go to plan b. and there is a way to get the government open, but they're both going to have to give. And right now neither one of them is willing to give an inch. And maybe they ought to just step aside and let two other people take a -- take a run at it.

BERMAN: So we have a Kennedy plan now on the table. We'll see if either side takes it up.

Senator John Kennedy of Louisiana, a pleasure having you on with us. Thanks so much.

KENNEDY: Thank you for having me, John.

BERMAN: We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:38:09] ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: As the longest government shutdown in history enters its 26th day, the White House acknowledges the shutdown is causing more damage to the economy than previously estimated.

CNN's Jessica Dean spoke with government workers who are getting hit hardest.

What did you learn, Jessica?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, good morning to you, Alisyn.

Those workers were telling me that really it's the uncertainty that they face as they continue to go without a paycheck. They just don't know when this is going to end. And that's what's been so very difficult and horrible about all of this for them.

In the meantime, they're doing whatever it takes to make ends meet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEAN (voice over): For the first time in 27 years, Amy Walker is looking for a new job.

AMY WALKER, FURLOUGHED GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE: When you love what you do at the government, but yet the government is not open for you to go in to work and whatever, you have to take what's available.

DEAN: Furloughed from her job as an analyst for the IRS, and not knowing when the shutdown will end, Walker now spends her time looking for jobs at Walmart, Target, local grocery stores.

WALKER: Just to know that my family relies on me or depends on me, and if something is not paid or cut off, food is not put on the table, then it's like, well, mom, what we going to do?

DEAN: And if looking for a job seemed unlikely for Walker just a month ago, so was this. She's now selling some of her belongings, including a favorite purse and shoes, hoping to earn money to pay bills.

WALKER: One of the things that I have been doing is posting things on FaceBook, Marketplace. I've placed things on eBay. I've placed things on Offer Up.

DEAN: It's not just Walker. Across the country, there's a wave of financial anxiety as 800,000 federal workers try to make ends meet not knowing when they'll be paid again.

[08:40:02] On Craigslist there are cars, children's toys and video game consoles, all being sold because government workers need quick cash. Over 40,000 Coast Guard members are among those affected. The branch's top official said to the best of his knowledge this is the first time in U.S. history service members in a U.S. armed force have not been paid during a lapse in appropriations. Unlike the other branches, it's funded through the Department of Homeland Security.

KAREN CORBETT SANDERS, CHAIR, FAIRFAX COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS SCHOOLBOARD: We've kind of put together a speed dating forum.

DEAN: In Virginia, Fairfax County Public Schools added a second hiring event for furloughed workers after the first one was so popular it quickly reached capacity. The schools are offering substitute teacher positions to federal employees desperate to find a paycheck.

JAMES GILKESON, FURLOUGHED GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEE: We've had to call all our banks and creditors and financial institutions to find out what options are available to be able to get some relief.

DEAN: The pain of the shutdown visible across the United States. At the Miami Airport, free food for TSA workers.

WILKINSON SEJOUR, OWNER, CHEF CREOLE: These people are here every day. It's not like they don't want to work. They want to work. But they're not getting paid.

DEAN: Renowned Chef Jose Andres announced he'll serve free meals daily in Washington, D.C., to federal workers and their families.

JOSE ANDRES, CHEF: We believe that no person should have to go through the pain of not knowing how to feed their children.

DEAN: Amy Walker says she's staying as positive as she can. But with a husband on disability, her daughter and grandchildren currently living at their home, and no end in sight for this shutdown, she's reaching a breaking point.

WALKER: Not being able to, you know, when your family is in need and they rely on you and then as much as your heart wants to do and you can't do, it's like a slap in the face. And that's how I feel, you know, the government has really slapped us in the face.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

CAMEROTA: All right, we do have breaking news right now because there's been an apparent suicide bombing that has rocked a Syrian city northeast of Aleppo, which is patrolled by U.S. troops. This is the first attack since President Trump announced plans to withdraw American forces from Syria.

And CNN's Barbara Starr is live for us at the Pentagon with all of this breaking news.

What have you learned, Barbara?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, at this hour the details are just coming in and it's very sketchy. But look at the map. This is the city of Manbij in northern Syria. There are dozens and dozens of U.S. troops in the immediate vicinity. They have conducted more than a dozen joint security patrols in the area with Turkish forces.

There has been a major blast in the city. There's social media video showing the impact of this blast. What we don't have confirmed at this hour and do not know is if U.S. patrol -- a U.S. patrol was in the immediate vicinity at the time of the blast. That is going to be a matter of deep concern, obviously.

What we know is that a coalition spokesman tweeted a short time ago on social media, and let me just read it, that the coalition is aware of open source reports regarding an explosion in Syria. Coalition forces conducted a routine patrol in Syria today. We are still gathering information and will share additional details at a later time.

The key words there, that they did conduct a patrol today. We are, by all accounts, talking about the area of Manbij, this city where these very tragic videos are emerging of a major suicide blast there.

Manbij is a hot spot right now. This is an area where the Turks, just across the border to the north, want the Kurds out of the general vicinity of the border region. The president says U.S. security will be withdrawn as part of the withdrawal eventually. The Russians believe the Syrians should take control of this area. We will have to see exactly what has happened here today. But this is all a very unsettled situation.

Alisyn. John.

CAMEROTA: All right, Barbara, please bring us more details as soon as you get any. Thank you very much for that breaking news.

BERMAN: All right, we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:48:23] CAMEROTA: A new Gillette ad is sparking debate across the country. The video, it's online, it was released on the company's social media accounts and it is not about shaving, it is about toxic masculinity in the Me Too era. Here it is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this the best a man can get? Is it? We can't hide from it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sexual harassment is taking over --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's been going on far too long. We can't laugh it off.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who's the daddy?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What I actually think she's trying to say --

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Making the same old excuses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boys will be boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boys will be boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boys will be boys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But something finally changed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Allegations regarding sexual assault and sexual harassment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And there will be no going back, because we -- we believe in the best in men.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Men need to hold other men accountable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because the boys watching today will be the men of tomorrow.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: All right, joining us now to talk about it are Charles Blow, he's an opinion columnist for "The New York Times," and Kirsten Powers, she's a columnist for "USA Today."

Charles, there's so much outrage, I guess, about this online. There's also some comments on YouTube and Twitter about people who are outraged about this. It does depict an awfully dark view of what guys are like. I don't think that that's what most men are like. But why am I supposed to hate this ad?

CHARLES BLOW, OP-ED COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": I'm not saying that you should hate the ad. I think that we -- toxic masculinity is tied so closely to masculinity itself that when you discuss toxic masculinity people -- men feel like they're being attacked, right? And we, as a whole culture, as a whole society, have to grapple with how we are teaching men to deal with their physiology and their chemistry.

[08:50:24] Testosterone is a real thing, right? And people all over the world exploit that in young men, right? That's why we send them to fight because their threat responses are low and their aggression is high and we valorize this idea of this aggression that appears in this particular ad. And --

CAMEROTA: So do you like the ad or you don't like the ad?

BLOW: I do. I like the idea that it opens the discussion because it is -- it is a very complicated concept because it is not -- there's some things that are simple. You know, don't harass women at work. Don't rape. No is no. But there's other things that are at the bottom of that pyramid that are not that simple and that we have, as a whole world, a humanity -- as humanity have taught guys that this thing, we like it in you, in some cases, and in other cases it is incredibly problematic and toxic. And we need to teach them how to navigate that and say, this part of you is a natural part of you. Testosterone is a real thing.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BLOW: And it does affect you in some ways but you have to know that you're bigger than that, you're bigger than this chemistry and this is how you operate and for the good in some cases and rein it in in other cases. And that is not how boys are taught.

CAMEROTA: OK.

BERMAN: Let me read you two people who don't like the ad.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BERMAN: So people know what some of the criticism is out there.

This is Piers Morgan writing from the U.K. apparently where she shaves. He says, I've used Gillette razors my entire adult life but this is absurd. Virtue-signaling PC guff may drive me away to a company less eager to fuel the current pathetic global assault on masculinity. Let boy be damn boys. Let me be damn men.

Now, the other side of that is from "Vox," from Kaitlyn Tiffany, a "Vox" reporter who writes, this ad is a misfire, in that it is a blatant attempt to make money off a painful and ongoing collective action that has not even an indirect relationship to face razors. It is inherently nonsensical to use feminism to sell men's grooming products.

So, Kirsten, where do you fall on the "Vox" Piers Morgan spectrum?

KIRSTEN POWERS, COLUMNIST, "USA TODAY": I like the ad, actually. I thought it was great. And I think that the issue of privilege, which I think a lot of people don't understand, means that you're in a position to -- as a man, for example, male privilege -- you're in a position that a woman's not in, in certain situations, especially because you -- you might be there when the inappropriate comments are being made about a co-worker or another situation, you could be out with your friend and he's misbehaving towards a woman and you can actually intervene in a way that women just can't intervene. And so I think this ad is really about telling men, you know, to use that privilege to step in when you see other things that are happening that shouldn't be happening, to be aware of it on your own.

I think -- I guess people are outraged because they don't want to hear that men sometimes behave in a toxic way. I don't think it's saying all men behave this way. I don't think anybody believes that. But the fact is matter is, men have behaved for a long time in a lot of ways that even some of my male friends during Me Too started saying to me, like, I'm looking back, I'm reflecting on my life and I can see that, you know, there's sometimes that I probably crossed the line and I didn't realize that. And that's the kind of reflection that you want to have.

CAMEROTA: Yes. I mean, well, I mean you're a man, but what's wrong with --

BERMAN: I appreciate that. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: And --

BERMAN: Finally.

POWERS: Last time you checked.

BERMAN: Finally I get the recognition I deserve.

CAMEROTA: And you get recognition. I mean and you're great, OK. So --

BERMAN: Keep trying. You're digging yourself out of that hole.

CAMEROTA: No, my point is, what's wrong -- since when did role modeling some sort of behavior on TV become virtue signaling?

BERMAN: Can I answer -- answer this?

CAMEROTA: Yes. Yes, man.

BERMAN: And I watched this with my 11-year-old son because I wanted to figure out what the controversy was here. And we both looked at each other afterwards like, it -- all this ad is about is bad behavior. There's nothing on the line in this ad, Charles. It's saying like don't ogle or harass women.

BLOW: Right.

BERMAN: Don't -- don't bully people.

CAMEROTA: Bully people.

BLOW: Right.

BERMAN: You know, don't beat people up.

BLOW: Right.

BERMAN: You know, what's controversial about saying those things?

BLOW: And I don't even understand what's controversial about doing -- mixing it with shaving. My brother -- I'm from a very small town in Louisiana. My brother has been the barber in that town for -- since I was in high school. And it is in those spaces where men are grooming that they feel kind of a comradery in a space where men can talk about men and be men. And that is, in that space, a lot of toxicity around everything from homophobia, to women, to sexism, to misogyny. And it is in that space that people do have to do the reckoning among men. It's not -- it is -- those grooming spaces become kind of sacred spaces.

And so I believe that this is kind of, in a way, right on target because it is the men shaving in the locker room after the gym in the morning getting ready for work and they're talking crazy and you have to say, yo, we can't talk like that. This is not OK. Because when you -- you think this is OK to bottle this up in this space and then walk out and behave another way, but what if -- well, there are people who don't do that, who don't have the self-control, who don't bottle it up and wall it off into one space where there are only guys there and they take it out to the rest of the world and they affect other people.

CAMEROTA: Men being groomed. I like this metaphor.

But, Kirsten, I think that what Piers Morgan -- I mean what he hits on is this current pathetic global assault on masculinity. You know, we hear that -- I mean we hear that from other people who have loud megaphones that men feel under siege. I don't know -- I don't know what to say about that. I don't -- I don't understand why Piers Morgan, somebody like that, or other cable news hosts would feel as though their masculinity is being stripped from them.

BLOW: Because it's fragile.

POWERS: Yes, well, it's fragile and they're -- and they're privileged. Again, to go back to this, that they expect to not be criticized. That any kind of criticizing of them crosses a line. It's an assault on them. It's an attack. They don't want to be held accountable.

So I think that if you're somebody who's having a sort of triggering reaction to this, you might want to take a look at yourself and ask why that is because what is it about treating women with respect and equality that's so offensive to you? And what is it about sending different kinds of messages to little boys that they don't have to be fighting and acting in what this sort of -- it is toxic masculinity, that's not actual masculinity. That's not what masculinity is. And so I would just say if you're upset about this, maybe ask yourself why.

BERMAN: Yes. What does let boys be boys mean in the context of this ad that Piers and others are so upset about? Again, because I don't think being a boy or being a man means harassing women or bullying or necessarily fighting.

CAMEROTA: I don't either. That's my point is that I think that that ad really depicts sort of like just the grossest guys that you would ever encounter, which are really rare.

BERMAN: That's what I'm trying to get my head around then. So then are there --

BLOW: Well, I don't think that bullying is rare. I don't think it's rare at all.

BERMAN: Oh, no, I don't mean to use --

BLOW: I don't -- I don't think that the constant policing of what masculinity is, even among boys is rare at all.

POWERS: Right.

BLOW: Anybody who's ever been a boy in a middle school or a high school knows that this is a constant frame on which you are judging yourself and being judged as a -- as --

CAMEROTA: Meaning that -- and you're bullied if you're not. If don't --

BLOW: If you're not. If you're not -- if you're not the narrowest form of hard-headed boy, then you are ostracized, you are looked at differently. It is not rare.

BERMAN: Right.

BLOW: What is -- what maybe more rare is people who take the next step from that and harass and sexual assault women. But the idea --

CAMEROTA: Or who don't grow out of it. I mean I guess I'm looking at adult men, most of whom are fantastic, and if you don't grow out of that fourth grade bullying mind-set, that's a problem.

BLOW: Well I think that's the problem, but also I think Kirsten made an interesting point about privilege because privilege is always a seesaw. And no matter what kind of privilege it is, whether it's male privilege, whether it's racial privilege or any other kind, the person at the top of the seesaw has to give up some of the advantage to even things out. And every time you say we have to even this out and you have to give us some of this privilege and advantage, people freak out because they are benefitting from the imbalance. And men now benefit from the imbalance.

BERMAN: Kirsten.

POWERS: Yes, I think that's exactly right. And I think I just want to second what he said about the way that boys are given this very narrow view of what it means to be a boy. And I think if you even look at how a lot of Trump supporters talk about Donald Trump, that he's so masculine, that he's so strong. And, again, that's actually not what masculinity is. Masculinity, I think, is having more self-control and having integrity and these kinds of issues. They're not, you know, being a man, as people like to say. I think sometimes carries a connotation that isn't totally healthy.

BERMAN: You know, I -- one ray of hope here. I will say that, again, I live with a couple of 11-year-old boys and I don't think that the messages that are being delivered in this ad are in any way foreign to them. They have kindness week at their public schools this week.

CAMEROTA: (INAUDIBLE).

BERMAN: So, you know, I think that's a thing. And I don't think this is the same thing as saying --

BLOW: I wish I had a kindness week.

BERMAN: Yes, I know. Believe me, we could use one in here, especially with her.

But this isn't to say that boys and girls are the same. Men and women aren't the same. You know, I do think, for instance, that as I watch my boys go through the public school system, especially at the younger age, there should have been more chance for them to run around. I think boys physically in some cases at the younger ages need to express themselves in productive, wholesome ways, like a jungle gym or something. But that's different than bullying or beating people up.

CAMEROTA: Yes, it is. BERMAN: You know, and, you know, and scratching yourself and watching

football, for instance, no one's stopping that either.

BLOW: But the management of testosterone is a real thing that we don't spend enough time on dealing with when we talk about boys. We have to talk about them as like monsters, that we talk about them as like we should just let them do what they do because this is natural to them. And they do have to manage it. It is -- this is part of your body. It's a natural part of your body but you have to manage it.

CAMEROTA: All right, Charles Blow, Kirsten Powers, it will be very interesting to see if this does, in fact, plays during the Super Bowl, as is expected.

[09:00:05] BERMAN: All right, we are getting some new information on breaking news. A deadly