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Interview with Rep. Dan Kildee (D-MI); Talks to Force out Maduro; U.S. and Taliban Peace Framework; Measles Outbreak in Washington State. Aired 8:30-9a ET

Aired January 28, 2019 - 08:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[08:30:00] JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: Not a dollar for the border wall ever. So is that your position right now, as these 17 bipartisan members of both chambers get together and try to hammer out a deal, you don't want any new money for any new border barrier?

REP. DAN KILDEE (D), CHIEF DEPUTY WHIP: Well, we all go into this negotiation with our own point of view, recognizing that there will have to be compromise in order to get to yes. And so my view all along has been, if we're going to go big, and make significant investments in border security, let's focus on what the real problems are. The president believes it's a wall that would be the solution to the problem. Many of us do not. I would much rather see us spend the resources on drug-sniffing technology and basically using 21st century solution to this problem.

But, let's be clear, that's the position that I take. But I'm also a member of Congress that commits to the process and believes that we have to give in order to get to yes. Unfortunately, it seems as though, just from your recent reporting, that the president is signaling that he won't be willing to compromise. We are.

BERMAN: Well, the president has made clear, Mick Mulvaney his chief of staff said yesterday -- said two things. Number one, the president absolutely is willing to shut the government down again. And, number two, he is willing to use executive powers. Those are the two clear messages we got from the White House.

I just want to make sure I understand the message from House Democratic leadership, of which you are a part. You're the House Democratic whip of the caucus there. And you are now telling me, if I understand this correctly, that you might be willing to vote for some new funding for a border barrier, under the right circumstances, under a broader deal?

KILDEE: Well, I don't want to get ahead of the conferees, but I -- I will say this, and I'm only speaking for myself, I'm willing to accept some compromise. And we've always supported, in one form or another, enhanced border security, which includes barriers where they make sense. If there's an argument that there's a particular part of the geography that requires strengthening the fencing or barriers that are there, I think you'll hear Democrats be willing to go that direction. But I don't want to get ahead of the conferees. I am, however, willing to accept a compromise that may include some

things that I don't like because we have to do that. That's the nature of government.

BERMAN: All right. There was a question on Friday, many people were saying, this is an example of the president caving. The president caved. He got nothing for this 35-day shutdown. Some of the people who said that were those who were among his fiercest supporters. So let me just play you some varying clips from people who are normally rock solid behind the president. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANN COULTER: He promised something for 18 months, and he lied about it. That's how you get Trump. It's not this Russia nonsense.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: The president, well, he showed leadership. rose above the partisan bickering in the swamp, offering relief to federal workers, all while sticking to his commitment to secure our border.

LOU DOBBS, FOX NEWS: She has just whipped the president of the United States. He just reversed himself. That's a victory for Nancy Pelosi.

JEANINE PIRRO, FOX NEWS: He did not cave! He made a tactical decision, a strategy decision to pick the ground to fight on. Folks, the war isn't over yet.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BERMAN: So are you on team Dobbs or team Pirro here? Did the president cave or not?

KILDEE: Well, I don't know if he caved, but 35 days after he shut the government down, he walked away with absolutely nothing. Nothing that advanced his cause. Nothing that advanced his agenda. And he hurt 800,000 people in a way that will affect them for a long time and put the country at significant risk.

Look, Speaker Pelosi had a very firm position going into the negotiations back in December. President Trump had a very firm position. Speaker Pelosi's position was confirmed. And President Trump did not advance the ball.

Now, I have my doubts about what the president says. I think you have to be very careful to take anything he says on face value. His word is not very good.

My advice to our conferees, Democrats and Republicans, House and Senate, is to ignore the president and ignore the talking heads who try to characterize the president and just put our heads down and do our job.

BERMAN: Can I ask you a question about 2020 politics now.

We saw California Senator Kamala Harris yesterday with a big, official announcement in her hometown of Oakland. Her campaign says some 20,000 people were there.

When you saw that, what did you think?

KILDEE: Well, that's pretty impressive. And I think it's a demonstration that there is a lot of energy on the Democratic side for Democratic candidates. And I would say that Senator Harris certainly is going to bring a lot of that energy. I think many others will. Looks like it's going to be a pretty crowded field.

[08:35:02] BERMAN: Who you backing?

KILDEE: I see it as a good sign.

BERMAN: Who you backing? Who are you picking?

KILDEE: I -- at this point in time, I'm open. I have not selected anyone yet. We're going to see how this plays out. But I -- I'm impressed by the quality of the candidates that are indicating an interest in this race. A lot of them friends of mine, people that I've served with in the House.

BERMAN: If you could construct the perfect Democratic candidate for president in 2020, what would that be?

KILDEE: Well, that's a good question. I haven't quite thought about it that way. But it's certainly somebody who can come into a state like Michigan, my home state, and capture the imagination of people who work hard every day and just want to see somebody on their side. That, to me, is going to be the signal that we have a candidate that can win. If you can come into a state like ours, one that's really been, you know, struggling in some ways to try to catch up with the rest of the country in terms of where we are economically, that's going to be the candidate that I think can do it.

BERMAN: All right, Congressman Dan Kildee from Michigan, thanks so much for being with us.

KILDEE: Thanks, John.

BERMAN: Alisyn.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN ANCHOR: All right, Venezuela's embattled president accuses the U.S. of trying to oust him as the humanitarian crisis there deepens. So we discuss the power struggle and what can happen in Venezuela, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:40:08] BERMAN: All right, we do have breaking news this morning.

The United States and Taliban have agreed in principle to a peace framework. The U.S. envoy to Afghanistan tells "The New York Times" the plan involves a commitment from the Taliban to keep Afghanistan from being used as an international hub for terrorism. A source in Afghanistan close to the negotiations tells CNN that a cease-fire and U.S. withdrawal of combat troops were both discussed but no final conclusions were reached. This would be the biggest step toward ending the nearly two-decade long war in Afghanistan to date.

CAMEROTA: Well, the self-proclaimed interim president of Venezuela, Juan Guaido, tells "The Washington Post" that he is negotiating with military officials to oust embattled current President Nicolas Maduro. Maduro blames a U.S. led coup for the political upheaval.

As we reported in our last hour, the humanitarian crisis in Venezuela is getting worse by the day. Many on the streets are now calling for Maduro to go.

So joining us now is Rear Admiral John Kirby. He was the State Department and Pentagon spokesman under President Obama.

Admiral Kirby, great to have you.

There's a lot of developments about what's happening in Venezuela right now. So Guaido has the support of this top military attache, Colonel Jose Luis Silva. Will -- is that significant and will others defect?

REAR ADMIRAL JOHN KIRBY (RET.), CNN MILITARY AND DIPLOMATIC ANALYST: I don't know how significant it is, Alisyn. I mean it's certainly, you know, that he's here in the United States as the military attache and has come out publically for Guaido, I mean, I don't want to dismiss that, but he's only one officer in a big military. And what we're hearing is that various levels of the Venezuelan military are sort of showing their loyalty to the national assembly and to Mr. Guaido and being willing to talk with him.

That said, the defense ministry itself, the civilian control over the military, and many of the generals are still pledging their loyalty to Maduro. So the military's caught in the middle here, which is never a good thing on a political stage, and it's not clear exactly where it's going to go.

CAMEROTA: Is that what the deciding factor will be? Will that be the tipping point, whichever way the military goes?

KIRBY: No, I don't think so. I think it's going to be significant. But I think more important is going to be how Maduro and Guaido move forward to try to negotiate themselves out of this.

I mean what worries me today is that, you know, Guaido is calling for counter protests. And I get that. I understand it. But it would be not behooving to anybody for those protests to turn violent because when violence happens and who's going to put down that violence and on whose side are they going to come? And that's where the military comes in. So I think it was really, really important is getting the two sides to kind of try to encourage them to talk their way through this and to have some sort of negotiated settlement.

CAMEROTA: Well, you know, Nick Paton Walsh, in our last hour, showed us just the most hideous report of what it looks like on the ground there.

KIRBY: Yes. CAMEROTA: I mean it's so much worse than I think we imagined just when we're reading about it. You know, kids are picking food and garbage, actually, off the streets.

KIRBY: Yes.

CAMEROTA: They talked about, you know, bringing home a piece of chicken skin to try to split with their family. And so even if it's Guaido, I don't know how he turns the situation around there.

KIRBY: Well, that's why I think it's really important -- and I applaud the Trump administration for the stand that they've taken and the deliberate way that they have sort of worked their way through this. Now it's really important for them to bring on members of the international community more than what they have in a collaborative way to try to get humanitarian assistance in there in a responsible way and a safe way.

Guaido is talking about bringing in $2 million, I think he said, of humanitarian aid and, again, all very needed. No question about it. But coming from him, it may not get to where it needs to go. And Maduro could find ways to obstruct it. We've seen this happen in places like Syria. So it's really important for the international community now to put weight on Venezuela, both sides, to allow humanitarian assistance in safely to get to innocent people that are, frankly, caught up in this political wrangling.

CAMEROTA: Here's what the national security adviser, John Bolton, said over the weekend via Twitter. Any violence and intimidation against U.S. diplomatic personnel, Venezuela's democratic leader, Juan Guaido, or the national assembly itself would represent a grave assault on the rule of law and would be met with a significant response.

Do you know what that means?

KIRBY: Well, you have to assume that he's talking about some sort of U.S. military intervention. I think -- I think it is wise to make it clear that we have all options on the table and that we're willing to use them if we need to. I think it's also really important for the American government to stand up for American personnel wherever they are to say we're going to protect you, we're going to make sure that you can still do your job safely. I get all that.

But I'm hoping the administration understands the degree to which a military intervention by the United States would not be a wise course, at least right now. And I don't think -- I heard Senator Rubio talk about this over the weekend, he doesn't think it's going to go there. I hope he's right.

I do think, that said, that the United States military is -- I'm sure they are, if they're not, I'm sure they will be soon, planning for the potential evacuation of Americans, if it comes to that, to get them out of there safely.

But, look, Maduro already blames the United States for this entire fiasco. He's convinced and has been convinced for years that we have designs on intervening directly in his country and taking it over militarily. And, of course, we don't. So it's -- we need to be careful as we try to get to a negotiated settlement not to give that argument any more oxygen than he's already trying to feed it.

[08:45:15] CAMEROTA: Admiral Kirby, I want to ask you about another story that I'm just reading in "The New York Times," it's just crossing, about this potential peace deal --

KIRBY: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Between Taliban leaders in Afghanistan and the U.S.

KIRBY: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I'll just read you a portion. They have agreed in principle to the framework of a peace deal in which the insurgents guarantee to prevent Afghan territory from being used by terrorists and that could lead to a full pullout of American troops.

So, tell us the significance, and does this mean that the end of this 17-year war is in sight?

KIRBY: I don't know if I'd go that far right now, Alisyn. I think it is significant. I think it's a noteworthy progress in the talks. I'm glad that the Trump administration is pursuing dialogue with the Taliban and trying to get out of this war in a negotiated, diplomatic way. I completely support that, as we did when I was with the Obama administration.

I have a couple of concerns. One, the Taliban's not a monolithic organization and the representatives of the Taliban don't always speak for all the Taliban and what they are willing to do.

Number two, while this is a good framework to go, we'll get out, you don't provide safe haven to terrorists, there's a lot of details that still need to be fleshed out. Like, what is the pace of the withdrawal? And from what geographic areas in what order? And exactly how are the insurgents, the Taliban, going to prevent safe haven from occurring for al Qaeda and other terrorists in Afghanistan when they aren't the elected government? There is an elected government.

And that's my third be (ph) concern here is that this was a negotiation between the U.S. and the Taliban. Obviously important. Not dismissing that. But now it's important for the Afghan government to get involved as well. Now, I understand Mr. Khalilzad's going to go back and brief Afghan officials, and that's appropriate, but they need to be involved in these discussions too, which is something the Taliban has hitherto not been willing to entertain.

So a lot of work to go. It is encouraging. But it is Afghanistan and we have to -- we have to keep our optimism in check.

CAMEROTA: All right, Rear Admiral John Kirby, always great to get your perspective. Thanks so much.

KIRBY: Thank you. CAMEROTA: John.

BERMAN: Washington state is under a state of emergency as we speak due to a measles outbreak. Our Dr. Sanjay Gupta tells us how you can protect yourself and your kids, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[08:51:22] BERMAN: Washington state has declared a public health emergency because of a growing measles outbreak. At least 35 cases so far, most of them children. The highly contagious disease was considered eliminated from the United States 18 years ago. So what happened? Our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now.

Sanjay.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, yes, John, this is one of the most contagious diseases out there, just to make that clear. I mean so contagious, John, if I had measles, left this room, you came in here several hours later, you could get measles from the air droplets. So just to put that into a little bit of context in terms of the contagiousness.

You mentioned the numbers, John, let's just take a look. The reason there is now this state of emergency in Washington is because of these 34 confirmed cases, nine suspected cases. Of those 34, John, they know that 30 of those people were not vaccinated. Four people's status is not yet verified, so they may not have been vaccinated as well.

That's the concern. You know, the vaccine's very effective, 97 percent to 99 percent effective. But if you don't get vaccinated, you, obviously, are at significant risk.

John, these people also moved around. After you get exposed, before you develop symptoms, several days can go by. You don't even know you're sick.

Take a look at where they went, John, all these various places. Again, think about that in the context that I told you of just how contagious this can be. That's why there's a state of emergency. They want to make sure that, you know, they can contain this so that a lot more people don't become sick with the measles.

BERMAN: That's right, it's so contagious. You're not just putting yourself at risk, but also --

GUPTA: That's right.

BERMAN: Many others as well.

The people here not vaccinated. Almost all the children not vaccinated.

Explain, Sanjay, because I think people need to hear this, how do vaccines work? GUPTA: Well, what happens is you're basically exposing the body to

just a little bit of the virus in this case. They usually give it with three things, the measles, mumps, rubella. It's called the MMR vaccine. And it basically teaches your body's immune system how to fight this virus if the body ever sees it again. That's how vaccines work.

What we find now -- and we dug into some of these numbers last night, John, if you look at these particular counties where you're seeing these outbreaks, you're seeing a significant number -- a significant percentage of people who are claiming exemptions, 7.9 percent of children claimed exemptions in Clark County, Washington, alone. That's a high number. The national average is closer to 2 percent. So, once you start to dip below 95 percent vaccination, you start to lose the herd immunity. I have immunity because I got the vaccine, but I'm also protecting people around me due to the herd. Once you start to drop down as low as you see there, you lose that herd immunity, and that's also part of the concern.

BERMAN: And, Sanjay, you've worked so hard to spread the truth about vaccines, but you know there still is some controversy for people who do want to connect. And, again, there's no proof of this, vaccines to autism.

GUPTA: There shouldn't be controversy over this. The reason this controversy started was because of a subsequently withdrawn scientific paper that was found to be shoddy science, not accurate in terms of how it presented the science. There's no connections between vaccines and autism. People may feel like there is because they get a vaccine, the child subsequently develops symptoms, but you go back and you look at the numbers. Millions of kids. And you look at the cases. You say, can I find any correlation here as I analyze the data every which way? There's just no connection, John.

BERMAN: All right, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, an important message. I hope people are listening because you hear 35 new cases of measles in one state, it's an awful lot.

Thanks, Sanjay.

GUPTA: You got it. Thank you.

CAMEROTA: All right, John, listen to this story.

A Florida man who went magnet fishing -- I want some refrigerator magnets. He -- over the weekend he was looking for salvage items. He reeled in a World War II hand grenade. He tossed it in his truck, drove to the local Taco Bell and then called the police. Well, that caused more excitement than the $2 burrito combo. The bomb squad had to come to remove the device and the restaurant was evacuated, John. The grenade was then taken away safely and the Taco Bell, we're happy to report, has reopened.

[08:55:27] BERMAN: One word for you here, Florida, Florida.

All right, they say the show must go on, and it did, but "Rent" fans waited to see a live TV version of the Broadway musical last night, instead saw the words "previously recorded" pop up first. It turns out one of the lead actors broke his foot during a dress rehearsal. There was a live finale with the original Broadway cast joining the TV actors on stage for an encore of the hit song "Seasons of Love."

CAMEROTA: That is such a good song.

BERMAN: This part was live. The rest, not so much.

CAMEROTA: All right.

Well, there are now signs this morning that the longest government shutdown in U.S. history might just be the prologue to the next government shutdown. All the new developments, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Top of the hour. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Good Monday morning to all of you.

We've got a lot of news this Monday on the Russia investigation, on the shutdown ending and federal workers finally going back to work. Big questions --

[09:00:02] HARLOW: Three weeks.

SCIUTTO: The big question is always when that back pay comes because it's not like it just shows up in their bank account on the day of.

HARLOW: No. No. again, now a new