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Conservative, We Have Finally Normalized Trumpism; Some 2020 Democrats Back Idea of Slavery Reparations; Powerful Cardinal, Advisor to Pope, Convicted of Child Sex Abuse; Amtrak Train Stranded for 36 Hours Now on the Move. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired February 26, 2019 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


[15:30:00]

MATT LEWIS, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You can either have influence or you can have your dignity and your integrity. You can have both of your Republican in the Senate working with Donald Trump. And I think in the case of a lot of these Republicans they have chosen to have some influence and relevance and re-election and to give up on the integrity and dignity part of it.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: I want to come back to what this means for true conservative voters and the conundrum that is 2020. But you point out in your piece, like if you were coming down from Mars and you flick on the TV or flip open a newspaper and you see the big story Monday in the "Washington Post" was that the President was accused of sexually harassing a campaign employee during his 2016 run or Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday this week is his former fixer and Michael Cohen who's like spilling the beans. Right? In front of Congress and all of America. And this is all happening while the President of the United States is meeting with the dictator of North Korea. Right. Just take a moment to -- what? On any normal day, right? Any of that is a-one material. But to your point, how has this become the new normal?

LEWIS: Right. As you said, so we've got the emergency order, a President overstepping his authority, essentially saying I'm going to do what I want to do unilaterally, forget about you Congress being a co-equal or even a superior branch of government. You have a sexual assault allegation, which anytime in politics would have been, you know, a huge story. You've got a President in this case I think legitimizing a rogue nuclear regime. So these are all stories. Michael Cohen testifying three times before Congress about corruption. Any of these stories would have had people I think going insane, maybe even calling for impeachment.

But we're sort of inured to it all. Right? I think we've become kind of used to it. And it's a big -- we're talking about it, but it's not as big as it should be. I think that says something about us. And then I would also say each of these stories are also antithetical to conservatism. Not only do they cut against what's normal in the world in society, what we've come to expect from a President, but they all cut against what a Reaganite conservative might expect as well.

BALDWIN: So what do conservative voters do when it comes to 2020? Quickly.

LEWIS They're got to -- most of them are going to suck it up and go for Donald Trump. He's their guy. This is tribalism. And if you look at what the Democrats are doing it's hard to blame them because the Democratic Party instead of going to the center, instead of trying to be the decent --

BALDWIN: They're moving left.

LEWIS -- they're lurching leftward on a lot of radical issues too.

BALDWIN: Matt Lewis, thank you very much for the open and close of the "Daily Beast" piece.

Now from Medicare to Social Security, speaking of, these 2020 contenders are also being asked about a number of policies and now asked about reparations for slavery. Just last night here on CNN in our Presidential town hall Senator Bernie Sanders struggled to answer the question as several other Democrats support the idea. Let's discuss that.

[15:35:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: As the race for 2020 starts to heat up, so is the debate over reparations for slavery. And the Democrats running for President are quickly learning voters want to know exactly where they stand on the issue. Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders, who in 2016 said he did not support reparations, had a much different answer during last night's CNN Town Hall.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Part of the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow in the U.S. is the legacy of income inequality in the U.S. what is your position on reparations to the descendants of slaves?

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (D), VERMONT: Well, as I just indicated, there are massive disparities that must be addressed. There is legislation that I like, introduced by Congressman Jim Clyburn. It's called the 10-20-30 legislation. Which focuses federal resources in a very significant way on distressed communities, communities that have high levels of poverty.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: So what is your position specifically on reparations? I ask the question because Elizabeth Warren, Julianne Castro, they've indicated they want --

SANDERS: What does that mean? What do they mean? I'm not sure that anyone's very clear. What I've just said is that I think we must do everything that we can to address the massive level of disparity that exists in this country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Four other candidates have opened up about their case for reparations, supporting at the very least a discussion. Here's what some of them have said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JULIAN CASTRO (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: What I do find challenging is the best way to do that. How to ensure that it's fair to every individual. You know, we're talking about now 150 years. And there's a process there. But what I believe is that it's fundamentally worth that. But I do believe that the country would be better off if we were to do that.

MARIANNE WILLIAMSON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We have systemic racism, layers of systemic racism that are actually layovers -- leftovers from slavery. I believe $100 billion given to a council that would apply this money to economic projects and educational projects of renewal for that population is simply a debt to be paid.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:40:00] SEN. KAMALA HARRIS (D), CALIFORNIA: Again, it's back to the inequities. There through -- look, America has a history of 200 years of slavery. We had Jim Crow. We had legal segregation in America for a very long time.

People aren't starting out on the same base in terms of their ability to succeed. And so, we have got to recognize that and give people a lift up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: And just add to that Senator Elizabeth Warren said she supports having a conversation that included Native Americans. Senator Cory Booker hasn't taken a direct stance but has spoken out against the nation's economic disparities. So let me bring in Tara Setmayer, CNN political commentator, and Symone Sanders who was Bernie Sanders national press secretary during his 2016 run. She's also a CNN political commentator. Hey ladies, thank you both for being with me. And I know where you two stand, but, you know, I want everyone else to hear it. So Tara, starting with you first, how do you see it?

TARA SETMAYER, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I feel like the issue of reparations -- however you're defining them -- that makes a difference. Because direct reparation payments I think is impractical. I don't think that's necessarily the way to go about it. That doesn't say that we're not acknowledging the inequalities. All of those things are true. But as a country we've tried in many different ways to try to rectify those things economically, whether it's affirmative action programs or income tax credits, opportunity zones, racial preferences for government contracting. I mean, there have been legislative fixes that have been put in place to try to level the playing field. Nobody's saying that that's perfect. But I don't know what the idea of reparations and direct payments or other ways is even practical.

Even President Obama was leery of that and tried to look at examples around the world where there have been reparations to try to make up for things like he used South Africa as an example, didn't quite work. India as an example, didn't quite work. How do you apply this equitably? I just don't think it's practical. I think it's indicative of the -- it's populism. It's the rhetoric of populism that sounds good, but I don't know that it's fair or equitable the way you distribute it or even practical in America.

BALDWIN: OK. Symone, what about you?

SYMONE SANDERS, FORMER NATIONAL PRESS SECRETARY, BERNIE TO 2016: Look, I think the conversation -- one, I'd like to note the only reason we're having a conversation about reparations right now is because Astead, a very good reporter from the "New York Times", got all of these candidates on the record in a "New York Times" story and then also kudos to the root for the reporting they did. So the press secretary and me is like hmm, I don't know if we should answer the inquiry. But I will say --

SETMAYER: Me too. I'm like -- reparations? That's a tough one. It's been going on for like 20 years. Right. Bill Clinton used to talk about it.

SANDERS: But I am glad that campaigns are candidates are willing to talk about it. And I'll say that the definition "The New York Times" used for reparations was the concept of, one, the acknowledgment from the federal government of the ongoing impact of slavery and discrimination and, this and is really important, and some form of compensation payment to those directly affected. So that is the definition Astead used in this reporting for the "New York Times" and he asked a number of campaigns what they thought about reparations.

BALDWIN: Do you like that definition?

SANDERS: You know, I think -- you know, I do like that definition. Now when you talk about compensation, compensation can take many different forms. But I think the idea of reparations. One, an acknowledgment from the federal government -- acknowledgment from the federal government of the ongoing impact of slavery and some type of compensation, I don't think it's crazy. Now I think that there's a safe mass for candidates who want to come out and talk about reparations, who are willing to be on the record, is specifically the idea of reparations, is to be supporting a bill that former Congressman John Conyers had introduced in Congress almost every year.

BALDWIN: He started in 1989. Yes.

Sanders: It started in 1989 when I was born. OK? About 20 or 30 years at this point. I'm about 30. But the bill is not a bill that gives reparations, you all. The bill is a bill to study --

BALDWIN: To do research.

SANDERS: -- to do research. And so, I actually think that's a safe place to be because you saw all the Presidential candidates say what -- even Bernie was like what do they mean? And I don't think there's a clear answer to what reparations would exactly look like.

BALDWIN: But I go back to -- and I was rereading what Barack Obama, when he was running for President back in 2007. And Tara, you mentioned this a second ago. When he was talking about this and he wrote this to the NAACP and he said, I have the quote. He said, that they would be -- the reparations would be used as an excuse for some to say we've paid our debt and to avoid the much harder work. Meaning like people would say all right, you've been paid back, thanks, bye. Like we don't need to -- we don't need to work any harder. Is that not --

SETMAYER: Yes. I think that that's not the panacea. You know, you're looking at multigenerational issues as a result of Jim Crow and as a result of the economic inequalities and the fact that, you know, black America did not --

[15:45:00] -- actually think that she's like started ten feet behind everybody else because of those things. But how do you rectify that now in the form of direct payments? How do you distribute that equitably? You don't just say OK, here's $60,000 to everyone and good luck, it's over. No. I mean there's -- there are -- there's attitudinal changes that need to happen. There are institutional changes that need to happen that I think the country is working on. And I just don't know that direct payments will do it.

They use the example of lottery winners. Right. What happens when people win a large sum of money? A lot of times lottery winners go bankrupt. So is a sum of money the answer to this? No. There's a lot of other things that go into it that could with the developing wealth that I think could be done as opposed to direct payments. I just don't know how you do that constitutionally --

SANDERS: I want to push back on that idea for a minute. Only because I mean, there's census bureau data right now that says a white -- for every $100 that a white family earns a black family of the same socioeconomic status, same educational background earns $5. So when folks are talking about the wealth gap in America, when you specifically talk about the gap between white Americans and black Americans of the same socioeconomic status it's more like a chasm. Not just a gap. So that's why I think you've seen candidates like Cory Booker talk about a Baby Bonds Bill. You've seen Kamala Harris talk about her Lift Act.

But when you talk specifically about this idea of reparations, again, part of it is the acknowledgment from the federal government of the ongoing effects of slavery and discrimination. So that part --

SETMAYER: I think there should be an acknowledgment.

SANDERS: -- so that part could be rectified -- yes, that part could be rectified not just in words but also in actual policy. But in this compensation question I tend to agree with Tara and I don't know if, you know, the $100 billion for example that Marianne Williamson has proposed is the answer. But that is why I think if we're going to have a conversation about this it should be a research-based conversation, which is a safe place for candidates to be if I was advising anybody, would be to support --

BALDWIN: We now know -- we know Sheila Jackson Lee has taken this back up. So you mentioned Conyers back there in '89. Yes, but we need more -- we need more research and perhaps -- but this is something, you know, it would be interesting to see how the politics of this plays out. But these Democratic contenders are being asked about it and we're getting answers certainly going into 2020. Ladies, I've got to go. Will and on the agreement. Symone Sanders and Tara Setmayer, good to see both of you all. Thank you so much.

Back to Michael Cohen here. Michael Cohen, the President's former fixer, he is still testifying right now behind closed doors on Capitol Hill. Hear what Senators are telling us about the, quote unquote, extensive grilling he's getting.

Plus one of the Pope's closest advisers and the Vatican's treasurer now convicted of child sexual abuse. Hear how one of his victims is now reacting.

[15:50:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: That man right there in the middle of the furious crowd is Cardinal George Pell. He was the Pope's most trusted advisor and Vatican treasurer, keyword he was. Today he is a convicted pedophile brought to long delay justice in a court in Melbourne, Australia after being convicted of sexually abusing two choirboys back in 1996. The conviction came in a secret trial in December that can just now be disclosed. One of the victims is now dead. An attorney for the surviving victim read a statement, from the now adult man, about what he has endured.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VIVIAN WALLER, ATTORNEY FOR ABUSE SURVIVOR: Like many survivors I had experienced shame, loneliness, depression and struggle. Like many survivors it has taken me years to understand the impact on my life. At some point we realized that we trusted someone we should have feared and we feared those genuine relationships that we should trust.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: This is of course just the latest on the Catholic Church. Just today in the U.S., the diocese of Sioux City Iowa released a list of 28 priests who have been credibly accused of sexual abuse. They are working with authorities on possible criminal charges.

And it is one of the most highly anticipated hearings of the entire Trump administration thus far. His former fixer, Michael Cohen, will testify tomorrow in public but first he is testifying right now behind closed doors. Hear what he's revealing coming up.

[15:55:00] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BALDWIN: It took nearly 40 hours. But dozens passenger stuck inside this Amtrak train are finally headed home. They just arrived in Eugene, Oregon after this whole ordeal started Sunday night. Their L.A. bound train hit a tree that fell onto the tracks in all the snowy weather. It was so thick that Amtrak said the safest thing to do is just stay put. Passengers say they started running out of food. But they did have electricity.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIM SHELTON, STUCK AMTRAK PASSENGER: Long, relatively uncomfortable, but you know, it was not that bad. People were great, the train crew was amazing. They were so professional and so kind. And we really wanted for nothing except for maybe some place comfortable to lie down and a shower.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BALDWIN: Amtrak just announced that it will suspend train service from Portland to Eugene until Friday.

I'm Brooke Baldwin. Thanks for being here. "THE LEAD" with Jake Tapper starts now.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: He is on Capitol Hill and expect to bring with him some skeletons from President Trump's closet.