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Advice Columnist Accuses Trump of Sexual Assault in the 1990s; House Dems Cut Deal to Hear from White House Counsel Office Insider; Oregon's Governor Orders Troopers to Bring Back GOP Lawmakers Back to Vote. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired June 23, 2019 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

[18:00:00] UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is disrespectful that I have I have three boys that I have to teach today what to do. Get them off the street.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I am raising a 7-year-old grandson that when he sees the police, he is afraid. That is not what's supposed to happen in America, in Indiana in 2019.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The community reached out. We have to (INAUDIBLE) I personally -- you remember that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let me give you the mike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone has the mike.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold on. If everyone can just -- we are going to allow him to speak, if everyone can just calm down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That technology exists, but it's not implemented. I asked -- they don't even have it testable yet. It won't be rolled out until the spring of -- this coming spring is what the company told me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The people who are in the audience, when you have these public forums, are the same black people but they are not invited to the table. And I think that it's time for you to rethink who you think the leaders are in this black community.

MAYOR PETE BUTTIGIEG (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: That seat at the table, I want people to know that the seat at the table is waiting for you and I would welcome more input from you on how I could do a better job of making people feel that they're actually welcomed when invited to that table.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: The relationship of politics and race. This topic was already front and center for the 2020 Democratic candidates.

Here is more of what Pete Buttigieg, the mayor of South Bend, Indiana, faced today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The reorganize your department by Friday next week and based on data. Get the racists off the streets. It's disrespectful that I wake up every day scared. It's disrespectful that I have three boys that I have to teach today what to do! Get them off the streets!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Joining us now, Melanie Campbell. She is the chair of Sisters Lead, Sisters Vote, a national organizer for the black women's round table. Also with us, CNN law enforcement analyst Charles Ramsay, former Washington D.C. police chief and former Philadelphia police commissioner who was appointed by President Obama to a task force that worked on greater police transparency. He was even brought in as a senior adviser to the Chicago police department in the wake of a deadly shooting like that of Laquan McDonald and also back with us is professor Michel Eric Dyson author of "What Truth Sounds Like."

Melanie, talk to me about what happened there in South Bend today. Did Pete Buttigieg show he gets it?

MELANIE CAMPBELL, CHAIR, SISTERS LEAD, SISTERS VOTE: Well, you know, I work for a mayor during the late (INAUDIBLE) during the Rodney King era. I think what I saw was the pain that mothers showed. Especially that's what really, really touched me more than anything. And that pain is very local but it's also what's happening all over the country.

I think what was very important, yes, for the mayor to host and hear the pain of the people but also to address the concerns of the people in real, tangible ways. And what I heard was that this was something that had been going on for a while and now it's really coming to the forefront.

So, he has to address that in real, tangible ways. And you heard the pain of those mothers, not just mothers but the pain of those mothers and the concern they have for their sons and, of course, their daughters. It has to be addressed if he's going to be on a national stage and says he wants to be the president of the United States. I think he has to address those issues he heard tonight.

CABRERA: Chief Ramsay, mayor Pete had a tough job, addressing some outraged but not throw his police department under the bus. Did he do a good job?

CHARLES RAMSAY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, just being there and listening, I think, was very, very important. You know, it was an angry crowd and rightfully so. There's a great deal of frustration that's there. It was very clear. I applaud community members for coming out and expressing that anger because it is important that that be heard. It's also important there be follow-up because at some point it is going to lead to some real concrete steps that can be taken to make change. But the fact that the mayor is there, the fact the mayor is listening I think is very important. Now, it has to not be the last meeting. Things have to happen afterwards in order to really have any lasting change or concrete change.

CABRERA: Talk more about that. What needs to happen in South Bend with the police department? We have already been talking about how the racial makeup of the police department does not reflect the racial makeup of the community in which it serves. That's one issue. But that also speaks to why it's difficult to rebuild the trust there between law enforcement and the community, right?

[18:05:03] RAMSAY: Yes. The diversity is an issue not just in South Bend but in departments across the country. Some of it has to do with the mass hiring that was done in the 1980s and a real effort toward diversity and a lot of those officers, men and women, are retiring now but they are not being replaced. And that's a problem.

And we have got to get the community involved and the police department to do a better job in recruiting blacks, Hispanics, Asians, gay, you know. We need to be as diverse as possible to be able to reflect a community.

But diversity alone doesn't solve the problem. I was chief in Washington, D.C. which is a majority black force. And we still had issues and problems relating to community. So it's respecting the community we serve. It is really working with the community we serve. Diversity is important but that, by itself, will not close the gap that exists now between police and community.

CABRERA: Michael Eric Dyson, after that town hall, we heard Buttigieg speaking with our Jason Carroll. He was visibly emotional about what happened today. Should he have shown that more of that emotion to the audience?

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, AUTHOR, WHAT TRUTH SOUNDS LIKE: It might have been helpful. It was very refreshing quite frankly that, you know, after that meeting he seemed to have registered in his spirit, in his soul, in his body the very visceral impact that that meeting had on him.

But yes, had he shown a bit more of that, not dramatic flourishes, just deep and profound empathy, and understanding that this is horrible. As police Chief Ramsay said, you know, that it is good that the people showed up to express that heat, that anger, that overwhelming fiery response but it was justified by years of neglect. And the reality is that this mayor has not done all that he could. He did slightly defensively suggest that so many things that they have tried and maybe some of them haven't worked.

Well, the fundamental issue here is one of diversity. And diversity is not just about being counting and making sure that you get your percentages right. It is about somebody being in the room to say this is a problem. Let's be honest. Many people of color who are police people, African-

American and Latinos, are the first recipients of the animist and hostility pf the police toward the community. They experience it themselves.

If you put on your force people of color, black and brown, who know existentially what it means to be a minority in this country then that translates into their empathy in dealing with communities that are under duress, that are in need of policing that is respective that is respectful to them and is redemptive ultimately because it comes from the community.

So if the mayor events that kind of understanding, that kind of emotional investment, the people feel that they have a leader who at least hears them. And I think for most of this time he has been tone deaf about his need to respond in ways that would be helpful to his people.

Yes, he should remain calm, balanced and not take it personally, but he has got to show a bit more of that understanding that this is my family and somebody shoots them without provocation or there's a repeated pattern of such behavior, something has to be done. I think in that sense, he didn't do well until afterward. But he should do that during the process itself.

CABRERA: Melanie, you talked about how the voice of the mother resonated with you. We know the black female vote is incredibly important and it really made the difference for Alabama Democrat Doug Jones in 2017 and was critical for many races in the 2018 mid-terms. How does an event like today resonate for black female voters?

CAMPBELL: Well, again, one of the thing that he showed -- first of all. Let me say this, Ana. We do a poll every year back with John Table (ph) in "Essence" magazine. And we release that poll of what black women want from the next president to the Congress. And the top issues for black women across generations is the issue of criminal justice reform, policing reform, in addressing those kinds of disparities in our community, hate crimes. So the concern you felt from that mother that I saw, that hurt is something that's resonating across this country. Our children are being killed. Black children to grown folk.

And so this has to be a core issue that these candidates mayor Buttigieg and others have to address head on. So you talk about the issue of criminal justice reforms, the things that vice president Biden is dealing with because of the some things that relate to criminal justice issues of his past or not being able to handle that.

The candidates who are going to win the vote, there is not a Democratic candidate that will make it to -- get through the primaries without the black women's vote. We are the secret sauce to moving that black vote. And so you have to respect that vote by addressing those issues, front and center. And, of course, policing reform is core to that issue and other forms of criminal justice reform.

[18:10:13] CABRERA: Michael Eric Dyson, Joe Biden may be grateful to see the discussion shift. He did have a tough week after speaking so nostalgically about his past friendship with segregation in senators. And before those remarks came out, the average of CNN polls, show Biden about 50 percent of the support of black voters. After the controversy now, does he risk losing support and goodwill he and any of these candidates really needs?

DYSON: Here is the thing. Black people are the bread and butter of that party. They are the backbone, the substrata. Real support comes from, you know, black people, especially African-American women, who voted 98 percent for Obama the first time, 96 percent the second time, who tried to put Hillary in office.

So these, you know, African-American people are seriously committed to this party. But it doesn't take much for them to say look, if you mess up, fess up. Let's move forward. The inability for the vice president to be able to say look, I kind of made a gaff here, I tend to make gaffs in night life. I see where I'm wrong and I'm moving forward.

The protractive struggle to get him to acknowledge this is troubling. It is not the fact that he made a mistake because many people, black people are very practical, pragmatic voters. They are trying to get Donald Trump out of office. They are not trying to subvert, undermine or destroy the potential of Joe Biden, who is leading the pack thus far to be able to win the presidency. But it can't come at the expense of respect for black people.

We can accept in light in liberal racism, even if it is unintended or racial insensitivity, even if it's unintended or racial dumber headedness (ph) even if it is unintended if you can't admit you messed up.

And so the problem with senator Biden is you have got to acknowledge you messed up and move forward. Why keep making this a story? Why keep because of your failure to apologize? It's like men in relationships. Say you are sorry. Say you messed up and then move on, receive forgiveness and move forward. And the inability to do that is telling on him. Black people will not desert him. They are going to still hang with him but have questions, why hurt yourself, why injure your own potential in moving forward? And I think that's something that the Biden campaign has to address and people around him have to pull on his coat tails and say look, Mr. Vice President you can't keep doing these kinds of things without consulting with the very people that you pay to inform you but also by not listening to black people who say this harms us, this hurts us. Don't be an expert in our pain. Don't tell us what didn't harm us. Acknowledge it and then move forward.

CABRERA: Chief Ramsay, I want to ask you the same question I asked to South Bend NAACP president Michael Patton. You know, the country watched this today. What did they learn?

RAMSAY: Well, you know, that's an interesting question. I think what they learned is that there's an awful lot of pain if many of our communities. There's a problem in policing and it has to be solved. Today in South Bend, tomorrow it could be any other city in America. We have got to face this. We got to be able to address it. We have

got to be able to make the changes we need to make as a profession. We cannot tolerate people in our profession that disrespect people based on race, gender or for any other reason at all. And the community has to work with us. So you got to deal with the real issue of violence in many of our communities, you know.

It's so much going on right now that sometimes it seems overwhelming. But at some point in time you have to sit down and you got to work toward solutions to these problems. And I think what people saw today was just a reflection of what's going on in America.

I mean, look at the Facebook scandal. Look at all the things that have been going on outside of South Bend, Indiana. I mean, this is not going to go away on its own. It is not going to go away on its own. And we have the responsibility to fix it and list it down and work together towards solution.

CABRERA: Let's end it there.

Chief Ramsay, Michael Eric Dyson, Melanie Campbell, thank you all.

RAMSAY: Thank you.

DYSON: Thank you.

CABRERA: Tensions between the U.S. and Iran are still simmering at this hour and we are getting a better idea of what was running through the President's mind when he decided to pull the plug on retaliatory strikes against Iran and what the White House is planning to do next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:18:07] CABRERA: President Trump says some people close to him wanted to go ahead with the military strike against Iran but that he, in his words, didn't like it. Trump says he didn't feel that causing casualties in Iran was a proportional response to the downing of an unarmed military drone. So instead he is ordering new set of economic sanctions scheduled to take effect tomorrow. The President insists he pays attentions a range of advisers not just those who share his opinion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC HOST, MEET THE PRESS: Do you feel like you were being pushed into military action against Iran by any of your advisers?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I have two groups of people. I have doves and some hawks.

TODD: Yes. You have some serious hawks.

TRUMP: I have some hawks -- yes, John Bolton is absolutely a hawk. If it were up to him, he would take on the whole world at the one time, OK. But that doesn't matter because I want both sides. You know, some people said why did you put -- you know, I was against going into Iraq for years and years. And before it ever happened. I was totally against. I was a private citizen. Never made sense to me. I was against going into the Middle East. Chuck, we spent $7 trillion in the Middle East right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Let's get to our White House correspondent Boris Sanchez.

Boris, nothing yet from the President today on tensions with Iran. But what are other senior administration officials saying?

BORIS SANCHEZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Ana.

Yes, we heard from several key administrators officials today on this, most notably perhaps from national security adviser John Bolton who is visiting Israel right now. He gave a press conference with the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu in which he was asked about the escalating tension between the U.S. and Iran. And he essentially repeated something that we previously heard from the President about the military options still being on the table, saying that the U.S. military is rebuilt and ready to go. He says that the Iranians should not perceive this canceled strike as weakness.

We also heard from vice president Mike Pence, he spoke with Jake Tapper on "STATE ON THE UNION" this morning, making clear that the U.S. would pushing forward with pressure on Iran until they agree to a new nuclear deal.

Listen to what he told Jake Tapper.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[18:20:06] MIKE PENCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The President's message to Iran is very clear. We are not going to allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon. And we Are not going to stand by while Iran continues to sew malign and influence across the region. That's why the President will announce additional sanctions against Iran. The President has made it clear we are not going to tolerate any threats against American forces, American interests, America's allies in the region and we will never allow Iran to obtain a nuclear weapon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Lastly, Ana, we heard from secretary of state Mike Pompeo on this, he effectively said that as soon as Iran is ready to negotiate, the U.S. will respond and talks can begin. As you said, President Trump returned to the White House a couple of hours ago from golfing on Sunday. He did not respond to reporters' shouted questions, though.

CABRERA: OK. Boris Sanchez, at the White House for us, thanks.

I want to bring in Aaron David Miller, our global affairs analyst. He served as a state department negotiator under democratic and Republican leadership.

Aaron, we were on the brink of war. The President pulled back. The question now, where do we go from here? Is there a better deal to be have than the one the President where at (ph)?

AARON DAVID MILLER , CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, I think there may be. But I think, it probably, Ana, exist on the galaxy far, far, away, not back here on planet earth.

I mean, Ana, I don't see and I don't think how anyone could predict a happy ending to this story, at least for now. No trust in confidence, no channels of communication. Even for deconfliction. And no common space between Tehran and Washington to create the conditions for negotiation that would actually working.

And frankly, I don't think either side right now wants to negotiate. The President is persuaded. And I think Mr. Bolton and Mr. Pompeo have done a lot to push him on that direction. But the maximum pressure campaign ultimately will work to just to cause pain but to bring the Iranians back to a table so that a new deal can be negotiated far more favorable to the United States. And the supreme leader, I think, he has no stake right now in negotiations. What the Iranians need is economic relief. And frankly I don't think the administration is in any mood to provide it.

CABRERA: Well, what would you advise them to do? How would you get Iran back to the negotiating table because the President's plan clearly involve in making sure that Iran knows he was just ten minutes away from a military strike, held back this time.

MILLER: Well, I mean, look, if President Trump can find a way to negotiate and exchange love letters with the world's last authoritarian dictator, Kim Jong-un, a man who has presided, as his father and grandfather have, over forced starvation of the Korean people, who is on the state sponsor list, who has 60 nuclear weapons, one would ask the question, how come the administration can't find a way to engage Iran?

And frankly, I think the President tomorrow would pivot on a dime regardless of what Mr. Pompeo and Mr. Bolton had to say if, in fact, there was a serious effort not to have a summit of the vanities, but to have a summit that actually could produce something. But I just don't think that's in the cards.

CABRERA: Let's talk more about North Korea because we know the President and Kim Jong-un exchanged more letters just this past week. Do you think this crisis with Iran has played a role in that?

MILLER: It is hard to say. I mean, you know, I would like to believe and I am not sure analytically it holds up that that the Trump administration is walking from Iran nuclear agreement last May. We have a fundamentally chilling impact on North Koreans' willingness and ability to reach an agreement with the United States.

But I think the U.S./North Korean relationship is set by a different dynamic. I think the President actually believes that an agreement with North Korea is his ticket into the history books, dealing with Iran is politically fraught. Clearly, that's proven the case for Mr. Obama and some of Mr. Obama's predecessors. And Kim, I think, believes that there may well be a way to turn the President. I just don't see that one either, frankly, right now, producing concrete results. Both of these relationships will produce outcomes but not necessarily comprehensive, of course.

CABRERA: Aaron David Miller, thank you so much.

MILLER: Thank you, Ana.

CABRERA: New allegations against President Trump. This time, from a magazine columnist who says he sexually assaulted her in the '90s. What she said happened and how the President is reacting next.

But first, Wall Street has a lot to watch for this week. Some important events could have big impacts on stocks. CNN Chief business correspondent Christine Romans has more.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Ana. The major event Wall Street focusing on this week, President Trump meeting President Xi at the G-20. Trade negotiations resumed after the leaders spoke by phone. You know, the two sides have been locked in an escalating trade war. President Trump is optimistic about a deal. Investors are encouraged by the meeting.

But risk remains. If talks fall apart or progress falls, stocks could tumble. Investors have shown mixed reactions to China trade headlines over the past few months and it seems the spat has reached a tipping point. That as the S&P 500 comes off fresh record highs last week thanks to dovish language from federal reserve chairman Jerome Powell. The central bank seems trying to cut rates at its meeting next July, a move the stock market has been cheering for.

And of course, there are lingering questions about the effect President Trump is having on his hand-picked fed chief. The President has repeatedly criticize Powell saying the economic growth would be stronger if rates were grower. Powell says political pressure will not sway the group's decisions but that uncertainties about the economic condition could push group to cut rates.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:29:50] CABRERA: Advice columnist Jean Carol is not backing away from her allegations that Donald Trump sexually assaulted her decades before winning the White House. President Trump responded this weekend and emphatically denying her accusations. Trump says he does not even know Carol and accuses her of making up false allegations for publicity. Carroll detailed the alleged assault in her upcoming book, and "New York Magazine" published an excerpt on Friday.

CNN's Sara Murray is digging into the details of Carroll's explosive claims.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SARA MURRAY, CNN POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President

Trump is denying accusations that he forced himself on author and advice columnist, E. Jean Carroll, in a Manhattan department store dressing room more than 20 years ago.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's a false accusation, and it's a disgrace.

MURRAY (voice-over): Carroll raised the allegations against Trump and instances of sexual harassment from other men in her life in her forthcoming book, "What Do We Need Men For? A Modest Proposal." Excerpts were published Friday in "New York Magazine." She described the incident with Trump in an interview with NBC News.

E. JEAN CARROLL, AUTHOR, "WHAT DO WE NEED MEN FOR? A MODEST PROPOSAL": So he was like this. I walked in, he shut the door behind us, and threw me up against the wall and kissed me. I couldn't believe it.

MURRAY (voice-over): According to Carroll, she attempted to laugh off the incident in an effort to diffuse the situation, but that didn't work. She says that's when she realized how serious it was.

CARROLL: And it was a work of a second to reach in under my Donna Karan through my -- opening at the front and through the Donna Karan dress and pull down my tights. That's when my brain went on -- that's when the adrenaline started, and it became -- it became a fight.

MURRAY (voice-over): In graphic detail, Carroll describes what happens next, writing in "New York Magazine," quote, he opens the overcoat, unzips his pants, and, forcing his fingers around my private area, thrusts his penis halfway -- or completely, I'm not certain -- inside me.

Carroll says she was eventually able to push him away and make her way out of the store. In an interview with CNN, Carroll says she doesn't refer to the incident as rape because she doesn't want to minimize others who have endured sustained sexual violence.

Yes, it was an attack, she tells CNN. Yes, it was against my will. Yes, it hurt. But I just can't put myself on the level of other women who are young, who have children, who are victims of sexual violence for most of their lives.

President Trump is denying this ever happened.

TRUMP: So it's a total false accusation, and I don't know anything about her. And she has made this charge against others. And, you know, people have to be careful because they're playing with very dangerous territory.

MURRAY (voice-over): Trump saying in a statement, I've never met this person in my life. Adding, shame on those who make up false stories of assault to try to get publicity for themselves or sell a book or carry out a political agenda.

TRUMP: You can't do that for the sake of publicity. MURRAY (voice-over): After hearing Trump's denial, Carroll tells CNN,

of course, he says that. Carroll did not back away from her allegations against Trump or the other men included in her book, telling CNN, I happen to have some run-ins with some really dangerous men.

The President also pointing to a lack of evidence, writing, no pictures, no surveillance, no video, no reports, no sales attendants around? I would like to thank Bergdorf Goodman for confirming they have no video footage of any such incident because it never happened.

Despite Trump saying they never met, Carroll published a picture showing the two chatting during a holiday party in the 1980s.

TRUMP: There's some picture where we're shaking hands, it looks like, at some kind of event. I have my coat on, I have my wife standing next to me, and I didn't know her husband but he was a newscaster. But I have no idea who she is, none whatsoever.

MURRAY (voice-over): CNN spoke to one of two friends mentioned in Carroll's book who Carroll told about the alleged incident some two decades ago. The friend confirmed to CNN that Carroll had told her the story at the time.

"New York Magazine" tells CNN, they spoke with two of Carroll's friends who corroborated her story.

GENEVIEVE SMITH, FEATURES DIRECTOR, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: We did talk to the two women that says that she told at the time. They were able to corroborate that she -- they do remember being told that at the time. They also provided details of the conversation that she hadn't written about that they remembered.

MURRAY (voice-over): CNN has reached out to Carroll but she has yet to respond.

Now, at least 15 other women have come out with allegations against Donald Trump in the past, either of sexual harassment, sexual assault, or lewd behavior. These all came up during the 2016 presidential campaign. Donald Trump denied all of them.

But remember, they caught fire in part because this "Access Hollywood" tape came to light. In the tape, Donald Trump is bragging about how he grabs women by their genitals and says, when you're a star, they let you do it.

Sara Murray, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABRERA: Our thanks to Sara Murray. And just a heads up here, Jean Carroll will be live on CNN's "NEW DAY" tomorrow at 7:00 a.m. Eastern here on CNN.

Another week and another member of the White House will be answering questions from House Democrats. Our Elie Honig is live with "Cross- exam," answering your questions next.

[18:35:06] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Congressional Democrats are continuing to flex their oversight power. A source tells CNN that House Judiciary Committee has reached a deal to hear from former White House aide Annie Donaldson.

Donaldson served as chief of staff to then-White House Counsel Don McGahn and says she took extensive notes around the time President Trump fired FBI Director James Comey.

The committee had originally subpoenaed Donaldson to provide testimony by tomorrow, but sources familiar with the matter say the two sides have reached a deal that allows her to provide written answers to questions provided by the committee instead.

And that brings us to our weekly segment, "Cross-exam with Elie Honig." He is here to answer your questions about legal news. Elie is a former federal and state prosecutor and now a CNN legal analyst.

So as congressional Democrats prepare to receive information from Donaldson, we know former White House communications director Hope Hicks was up there on Capitol Hill this week but refused to answer any questions about her time in the White House.

One viewer asks this, what do you think of the -- of the House allowing Hope Hicks to testify behind closed doors? Was this a reasonable deal to get her testimony without grandstanding by members of Congress?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: So I don't like the deal, and I don't like the deal for Annie Donaldson either.

First of all, Hope Hicks is a central witness on obstruction of justice. She's mentioned over 180 times in the Mueller report, and she's seemingly somehow present at almost every major act of obstruction. She was inner, inner circle for the campaign and then for the administration.

[18:40:01] Here's the problem with closed-doors testimony -- it doesn't really make a dent with the public. We got the transcript of Hope Hicks' testimony late last week, and nobody really noticed or cared. And I think the same thing is going to happen with Annie Donaldson.

The other thing is the White House lawyers were present for Hope Hicks' testimony, and they objected like crazy. They stonewalled. They objected over 150 times. They didn't let her answer where her office was physically located.

It's easy to do that behind closed doors. It's really hard to do that with the cameras are on. It looks obstructive. It is obstructive.

Now, Chairman Nadler, Jerry Nadler, came out afterward and said, this is what we planned to do because, now, we're going to the courts and we're going to be able to show a judge why the White House is being so ridiculous, why their position is so over the line.

But I don't think this was necessary. I think it was already clear the White House -- President Trump already said, I'm fighting all the subpoenas. They sent a memo explaining their legal theory which is, in my view, completely made up. So they need to just get to the courts, cut out all the half measures.

CABRERA: So as Congress continues its oversight, one viewer asks, can Congress impeach based solely on the Mueller report without calling witnesses or doing its own investigation?

HONIG: So the answer is yes. The constitution gives Congress the sole power of impeachment. But the thing is, that's about all the constitution says.

So when you're doing a criminal trial, there is a big thick book, the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, that tells us exactly how things will go. There is no such book for impeachment. It can go however Congress wants.

And in fact, in 1998, when the House of Representatives impeached Bill Clinton, they did it entirely based on Ken Starr's report and the evidence that went with it. They did not subpoena any witnesses. They did not put on any additional evidence. So the natural question is, why is this Congress issuing subpoenas at all?

I think there are two reasons. One, they may want more information. They may want to flesh out some of the testimony. They're completely entitled to do that. And second of all, they're trying to rally support within Congress and in the general public. But taking testimony, I think, behind closed doors and in writing is not going to do the trick.

CABRERA: Let's talk about the Supreme Court which will soon decide whether the 2020 census will have a citizenship question on it. What are the implications of this decision?

HONIG: The implications are huge, and it's important that people understand this. So the census, of course, is the count done every 10 years, and it is used to decide how many representatives each state gets in Congress based on population. It's also used to allocate billions of dollars in federal funding.

So the citizenship question has not been asked of every respondent to the census in 70 years. 1950 was the last time everybody had to answer, are you a citizen? It went away. And now, 70 years later, the Trump administration wants to bring it back for 2020.

A group of state attorney generals challenged it. And the question is the Trump administration says, well, we need more reliable citizenship numbers so we can better enforce the Voting Rights Act and protect against discrimination.

The A.G. said, no, it's just the opposite. What you want to do is -- what you're trying to do is intimidate people who are not citizens who are going to see that question and say, well, I'm not sending it in at all, which will reduce the counts in high minority states and districts.

Now, a trial judge here in Manhattan heard the case and ruled it was discriminatory in intent. We will hear from the Supreme Court very soon whether they agree.

CABRERA: Finally, your top questions for the week ahead?

HONIG: Huge week in the Supreme Court. This is the last week of the term. There are about 16 cases left on the calendar. They all will be ruled on this week. The census question will be answered this week. An important question about political gerrymandering will be answered this had week.

Second of all, Roger Stone.

(LAUGHTER)

HONIG: We can't go a few weeks without Roger Stone doing something wrong.

CABRERA: Can't get away from him.

HONIG: Judge Amy Berman Jackson has had enough. He's on thinner and thinner ice. He keeps on making public statements that violate her gag order. She wants to hear from him this week. We'll see if she sends him into prison to await trial.

And finally, when -- when, when, when -- will Congress finally take legal action to support its subpoenas? Nadler has said we're going to court on McGahn, but when? When will action take the place of words?

CABRERA: All right, Elie Honig, as always, thank you so much.

HONIG: Thanks, Ana.

CABRERA: And "Cross-exam," of course, is also on CNN.com.

Republican lawmakers in Oregon have fled the state and tell police to come heavily armed if they want to get them. Details on the legislation they are literally running from when we come back.

[18:44:01] (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Bizarre new twist today in the fight over an Oregon climate bill that has Republican lawmakers fleeing the state and Oregon's governor sending police to bring them back.

The Oregon GOP tweeting today two controversial joking messages. First up was this photo of protesters along with the words, heavily armed militia lays siege to Oregon's capitol as Senate Democrats cower in fear.

The Oregon GOP appears to be referring to yesterday's shutdown of the capitol building due to possible militia threats and concerns about the safety of Democratic lawmakers. Plus this, a tweet taking a jab at Democrats and showing the empty

seats vacated by GOP lawmakers in a legislative walkout over the climate bill.

The story is both complicated and dramatic. CNN's Sara Sidner has more.

SARA SIDNER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Ana, this is certainly not politics as usual. The Governor, so frustrated with the fact that Republicans have walked out on this legislative session, she has sent the state police to go get them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STATE SEN. PETER COURTNEY (D), PRESIDENT OF THE OREGON STATE SENATE: I am asking that the highest law enforcement branch in the state of Oregon go out and find my fellow legislators.

SIDNER (voice-over): Politics have gotten so ugly in Oregon the Democratic Governor has now ordered troopers to track down Republican state lawmakers.

GOV. KATE BROWN (D), OREGON: They are rogue. They need to get back. They need to do their jobs.

SIDNER (voice-over): It all came to a head Wednesday with a warning from the Governor saying she'd contacted state police after a Republican Senator said they would walk out of the legislature to block a vote on a landmark climate bill aimed at dramatically lowering greenhouse gas emissions.

STATE SEN. BRIAN BOQUIST (R), OREGON: If any of you are offended, that's fine.

SIDNER (voice-over): One of those senators responded to the governor's warning with a threat of his own.

BOQUIST: This is what I told the superintendent, send bachelors and come heavily armed. I'm not going to be a political prisoner in the state of Oregon. It's just that simple.

SIDNER (voice-over): Thursday, all 11 Republicans made good on the promise to walk out, attacking the Senate president before leaving.

BOQUIST: We're at the 11th hour. If you don't think these boots are for walking, you're flat wrong, Mr. President. And you send the state police to get me, hell is coming to visit you personally.

[18:50:02] SIDNER (voice-over): The governor followed through as well. In an extraordinary move last night, she ordered the state police to bring them back to work.

SIDNER (on camera): It is an extraordinary move, would you agree?

BROWN: Absolutely. But I would also argue that the challenges that we face as a state and a nation around tackling climate change also require extraordinary circumstances.

SIDNER (voice-over): The wife of one of the Republican senators told CNN the senators went out of state to Idaho.

BROWN: This is an embarrassment to the state of Oregon.

SIDNER (voice-over): The underlying reason for the standoff? Democrats have a supermajority, which means they can pass legislation without a vote from a single Republican. But in order to do any of the people's business, they need at least two Republican senators to be in attendance for a quorum.

State police say they will politely ask senators to return and accompany them if need be. But if they can't find two senators to agree, they would need permission from their superintendent to use handcuffs.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SIDNER: This legislative session ends on June 30th. So if they are unable to convince a couple of Republican senators to come back to the capitol, then all of the people's work will basically end for this session. But the Governor doesn't want to see that happen, so she's planning on calling a special session if needed in July -- Ana.

CABRERA: Sara Sidner, thank you.

In California, a horse trainer has been banned now after a 30th horse dies at the Santa Anita racetrack. Ahead, a special CNN investigation into why so many horses are dying.

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[18:56:14] CABRERA: We have this just in. Indian recovery teams have now retrieved the bodies of seven climbers who vanished last month in the Himalayas. Authorities say they will search for an eighth body tomorrow.

It's believed these climbers including four Britons, two Americans, and one Australian were killed in an avalanche. Indian authorities say the climbers did not have permission to climb the 21,000-foot mountain.

President Trump says sanctions on Iran will go into effect tomorrow, hoping this will drive Tehran to the bargaining table. Up next, a member of the House Armed Services Committee weighs in on the ongoing tensions and whether war can be avoided.

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