podcast
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
David Axelrod, the founder and director of the University of Chicago Institute of Politics, and CNN bring you The Axe Files, a series of revealing interviews with key figures in the political world. Go beyond the soundbites and get to know some of the most interesting players in politics.
Ep. 535 — Sen. Mark Kelly
The Axe Files with David Axelrod
May 25, 2023
Arizona Senator Mark Kelly never planned to go into politics. But in the years after his wife, former Rep. Gabby Giffords, was shot in an assassination attempt, the former astronaut decided to put aside his space suit and run for office. Sen. Kelly joined David to talk about gun violence, moving forward in the wake of Gabby’s injury, immigration and the Arizona border, the debt ceiling, and the importance of believing in science.
Episode Transcript
Intro
00:00:05
And now from the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio, The Axe Files with your host, David Axelrod.
David Axelrod
00:00:18
It wasn't that long ago that Arizona Senator Mark Kelly saw his future as a husband, a father, an astronaut and Navy officer. But the tragic assassination attempt in 2011 on his wife, Congresswoman Gabby Giffords, set Kelly on a different course. I spoke with Senator Kelly last week about his journey, his heroic wife, and the many issues from Ukraine to drought in the Southwest, on which he's playing a central role in the Senate today. Senator, great to see you. It's been a while, and it caused me to think about the first time that we met. And you probably don't remember this, but I do, because you weren't a senator. You weren't a politician. You were accompanying your wife, Gabby Giffords, at a White House reception in 2009, probably maybe 2010. And you were in your dress, your Navy uniform, and she proudly introduced you to me. And I always think back to that because so much has changed.
Mark Kelly
00:01:28
Yeah, no, it's years. Yeah. You know, it's been 14 years.
David Axelrod
00:01:33
And I was thinking about the fact that at the time that I met you, you were an astronaut. Mm hmm. And she was a star. Yeah, she was a star politician. She was someone who was. Who people spoke of as, here's a future senator, You know, here's maybe one of the future national women to break the glass ceiling in national politics and so on. And here you are, a United States senator. Now you're sitting in the seat that everybody thought she would be sitting in. She's a remarkable leader.
Mark Kelly
00:02:05
Right, Or in the other one. I mean, when you think about when she was, you know, shot on that day, soon after that, she was planning on having a meeting about, you know, potentially running for the United States Senate in the seat formerly held by John Kyl.
David Axelrod
00:02:20
Mm hmm.
Mark Kelly
00:02:22
And not realizing that months later, after she was injured, he decided not to run for reelection. So it was going to be would have been an open seat. So I'm fully aware and-
David Axelrod
00:02:34
I mean, it must be strange for you. I mean, you don't have time to stop and think about much.
Mark Kelly
00:02:38
No, I think about it all the time. All the time. I mean, Gabby was really, really good at this job. Yeah. Being a member of Congress, she loved the job. Not many. I don't hear that from a lot of members of Congress. And she would have run for the United States Senate. And as Jeff Flake, you know, once said, you know, Jeff said and I think he said this publicly, he said Gabby Giffords would have beaten me like a borrowed mule. And Jeff is such a good friend of hers. And of mine.
David Axelrod
00:03:08
Yeah, good man.
Mark Kelly
00:03:08
He's doing a fabulous job as the ambassador to Turkey. So I'm convinced she would have been in the United States Senate. And, you know, sometimes I think to myself, if something would have happened to me, if I was the person who would have been injured, would would Gabby have become an astronaut?
David Axelrod
00:03:22
Yeah.
Mark Kelly
00:03:23
She says, yes.
David Axelrod
00:03:26
You know, I'm on the way over here. I was listening to CNN on the radio and they were reporting on, and I can't even remember where it was from. But some young man with an AR 15 was shooting out his front door and several people were killed, shooting at motorists, driving by, ultimately ran out in the street with handguns and took off his body armor. And they basically was beckoning the police to kill him. I mean, it was what they call suicide by police. But these things seem to be happening all the time. And so my first question isn't about the policy issues. My first question is when these things happen, when you hear these things, does it take you back in time to that moment when this surreal thing happened to you that nobody ever expects to happen to them?
Mark Kelly
00:04:22
Many of them do. And that's right. We don't expect it to happen to us or our family members. And then in so many cases, it does. You know, I remember in January 2011 getting this call from Gabby's chief of staff to tell me that Gabby, and I just got off the phone with my wife. And then she told me that Gabby's been shot. And, you know, we don't think it's going to be, you know, just the way at least my, as an optimist, you know, my mind works, is okay. She was probably shot in the arm, hung up from that call, get a call back, you know, about 10 minutes later. And where she tells me she's been shot in the head. And at that point, I knew our lives were going to be dramatically different and changed forever. And on the airplane ride out there, you know, the media essentially pronounced her dead for about 30 minutes.
David Axelrod
00:05:13
I remember.
Mark Kelly
00:05:14
Yeah. Yeah. And I knew that this, you know, Gabby's life, my life were forever changed by that.
David Axelrod
00:05:19
You're I watched that wonderful documentary that was was released last year called Gabby Giffords Won't Back Down. And in it, there was a lot about that.
Mark Kelly
00:05:32
Mm hmm.
David Axelrod
00:05:32
And one of the things that struck was moving to me was your young daughters, that your daughters from a previous marriage, they hadn't grown particularly close to Gabby. By their own admission. They said it was the first and only time that they saw you cry.
Mark Kelly
00:05:51
Right.
David Axelrod
00:05:51
And but-
Mark Kelly
00:05:53
Was on a plane. Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:05:54
But the other thing that they said was that this drew you all closer.
Mark Kelly
00:06:00
And them to her, they you know, they're young ladies right there. They met Gabby when they were, you know, eight, you know, around eight years old. And they were typical stepdaughters. You know, it could be kind of crappy to their step mom. That's very typical. And my older daughter in particular, Claudia. After Gabby was shot, she wrote an apology letter. To her. And she didn't. Took a long time to read it to her. Gabby was in a coma, you know, for days. And then eventually she did. But then she also kept it and read it to herself over and over and over again. And she. She showed it to me, you know, a year later. And it was, you know, on a piece of notebook paper. And it was looked like the thing was 100 years old. Yeah. Because she just read it to herself. And it was a part an apology letter. And today, both of my daughters have a fantastic relationship with their stepmom, with Gabby. And, you know, sometimes out of really horrible things, you know, good things can happen. Yeah. And you mentioned the movie. You know, Gabby Giffords won't back down. I think it may made it might have been should have been better titled Gabby Giffords Won't Back Down and Won't Give Up. You know, that's what I really saw, you know, all the time she spent in the hospital.
David Axelrod
00:07:20
And and that's what the viewers see in that film, which is pretty remarkable. I have to tell you one thing I was reminded of watching that film was that you were going on your what would be your last mission into space?
Mark Kelly
00:07:34
Well, if this didn't happen, it might not have been my last mission. It was going to be my last mission on the space shuttle. And I was the commander of space Shuttle Endeavor.
David Axelrod
00:07:42
And there was a launch that was scheduled for Florida. And President Obama went there and in part, he went there because he knew that Gabby was going to be there. And they had seen Gabby right after she was shot in the hospital. There was footage in the film of that. But the reason I bring this up was he told me I had lunch with him the day after he saw you guys in Florida. And all he could talk about was how inspiring it was to see Gabby, because when he came back from Tucson, he had said, I don't know. I don't know where this is going. It doesn't look good. And the thing that made it more remarkable was that as we were sitting there having this conversation, a guy from the NSA came in, said, hey, could I have a word with the president? And he asked me to step out. And I did. I was not working in the White House at that time. I had gone back to her and work on the campaign. But it turns out that as we were having this conversation about her, he had given the order. On Osama bin Laden.
Mark Kelly
00:08:48
Yeah.
David Axelrod
00:08:48
And so he was getting an update on this. But this was the thing that he was wanted wanted to talk about. You know, watching her. And she still struggles with I saw a few months ago in Chicago with aphasia, which is the inability to speak.
Mark Kelly
00:09:05
Yep.
David Axelrod
00:09:05
As in the thoughts that you're thinking and also sometimes to receive information.
Mark Kelly
00:09:10
Hers. Hers is more of the transmission side.
David Axelrod
00:09:13
Yes.
Mark Kelly
00:09:13
She understands everything.
David Axelrod
00:09:15
Yes, that's clear. Yeah. Where I was going was I was wondering, you know, your colleague John Fetterman came to the Senate. He had had this stroke. He has the other issue, which is the the reception and how he hears words. Have you had a chance to talk with him as she had a chance to talk with him about these struggles?
Mark Kelly
00:09:35
Yes. Both of us. So his you know, stroke is in an area of the brain called the close to what's called the Wernicke's area, which is the reception of speech. And Gabby was shot from about three feet away with a nine millimeter round right in the middle of the left side of her forehead. But the bullet went either through or next to what's called the Broca's area, which is the transmission part. So that's why she has that type of aphasia. And, you know, he he struggles with you know, he can read stuff. You know, I'm on a committee with him and you'll see him walking around, you know, with a with an iPad. And but, you know, the-
David Axelrod
00:10:13
That translates.
Mark Kelly
00:10:15
To the auditory reception, you know, for him is is a challenge. So they can have the opposite, you know, issue.
David Axelrod
00:10:21
So what did you tell him? What did she tell him?
Mark Kelly
00:10:24
You know, that over time and with work that you know this, you can improve. And you know, I seen that in Gabby. I mean, even today, today she does, you know, speech therapy, you know, to prepare for when she has to give, you know, some remarks especially. But even, you know, we're now 12 years after her injury, she still improves. Not that there's not big leaps anymore, but you can see gradual improvement with hard work. And I'm sure my colleague will see the same.
David Axelrod
00:10:56
He must have been comforted to hear that.
00:10:58
Yes.
00:10:59
One other thing I want to say about about that whole sequence was that I was reminded about by the film as well, was the vote that she came back to cast. The first vote she came back to cast was actually quite relevant right now because she came back to cast a vote on the debt ceiling. She thought it was that important.
Mark Kelly
00:11:18
And it was the thought was it could be that close, that it could go one way or the other based on one vote in the House of Representatives. And she was just out of the hospital. I mean, she'd been out of the hospital maybe for a couple couple of months and still doing intensive outpatient therapy. But she you know, she's there to represent her constituents and it was the right thing to do. And she was going to show up at work.
David Axelrod
00:11:43
Did you have an opinion on that?
Mark Kelly
00:11:47
Well, she's the boss. Yeah. And, you know, she was a member of Congress and I 100% was supportive of this decision.
David Axelrod
00:11:57
You were right there by her side as she journeyed there. I should take this opportunity to say where we are right here again, I write back how much things change. But in Washington, things often don't. We're right back where we were in 2011. Do you have confidence that this thing, as you said, in your role, as you say, in your old profession, is going to land?
Mark Kelly
00:12:22
It has to. I mean, it would be catastrophic to the U.S. economy and it would have I mean, could be catastrophic for the worldwide economy to not do this and to default on our debt. And I mean, just to think about what this would mean to, you know, folks in Arizona and across the country, I mean, seniors potentially not getting their Social Security checks, veterans, you know, veterans, health care. I you know, in the past, I've delivered Meals on Wheels. I don't recall a single one of those seniors that I met that I ever felt didn't need this lunch and dinner that I delivered to their apartment or house that would end or could, you know, the same thing with, you know, lunches in schools for kids. You know, think about the folks we'd have to lay off across the government. I mean, I'm struggling and working really hard to make sure we've got the right technology and support to Border Patrol and to the nonprofits here with potentially would have to lay off Border Patrol agents. You know, I think we've got a crisis now. I mean, that would be a horrible thing for the state of Arizona and the country. So-
David Axelrod
00:13:40
Fair to say you're going to have to vote for some stuff you don't like, though.
Mark Kelly
00:13:42
That's very possible. Yep. And I think it's likely that. And, you know, often I think, you know, if everybody's unhappy, you know, that could be, you know, what we're going to have to accept to not default. When the country went through this in 2011. You were there in the White House. You know, I think the difference then was most members of Congress or all realized defaulting was not a good option. My sense is that's changed and there's members. My understanding is members of the House of Representatives that I mean, it's small numbers, but that's the preferred.
David Axelrod
00:14:19
You heard president say on television last week that, you know, it wouldn't be that bad.
Mark Kelly
00:14:25
It would be devastating to our country. I mean, I could not disagree with Donald Trump more. And it's almost hard for me to believe that a former president of the United States does not understand that.
David Axelrod
00:14:42
Really, in this case.
Mark Kelly
00:14:43
In this case, especially a guy who's in business.
David Axelrod
00:14:46
Well, especially a guy.
Mark Kelly
00:14:47
I mean.
David Axelrod
00:14:47
Who argued when he was president that that we shouldn't go there.
Mark Kelly
00:14:51
Right. And, you know, so maybe he doesn't really believe it. Maybe he just decided to say it. But it is dangerous for a former president to say those things.
David Axelrod
00:14:59
So that was an aside I wanted to have. But just returning to your journey when that horrible assassination attempt happened to your wife. 19 people shot, six killed. The whole nation was shocked because we hadn't seen that kind of political violence.
Mark Kelly
00:15:18
Well, I my understanding is, you know, Gabby is the first woman who was in elected office in the history of our country where there was an attempted assassination against a member of Congress.
David Axelrod
00:15:30
But now, you know, just the other day, Gerry Connolly, a member from Virginia, a deranged guy, apparently deranged, came into his office with a metal baseball bat and assaulted two of his staff members, was looking for the congressmen, one an intern who was just starting, which is so tragic.
Mark Kelly
00:15:48
Yeah. How heartbreaking is that?
David Axelrod
00:15:51
Well it's just like ike the young the other young girl who came to.
Mark Kelly
00:15:56
Yep. Christina Taylor Green.
David Axelrod
00:15:56
Nine years old, came to meet her congresswoman at this Meet your Congressman event that Gabby regularly held.
Mark Kelly
00:16:04
She was nine years old and had very, you know, high minded ideas about service and democracy. You know, not typical of a nine year old and just wanted to meet Gabby and ask her a question. Yeah. And you know, to for her life to be ended there so short and then to see this happen over and over again in our country. It's just tragic.
David Axelrod
00:16:27
Well, the concern I have is that it's becoming more commonplace, that our language is more incendiary, that our politics are more polarized. And I guess my question to you is, how do we break this mad cycle? Because it seems like the incentives are misaligned, like outrage is rewarded. You know, if you run a cable, a cable company or a social media platform or if you're a politician trying to raise money, outrage sells.
Mark Kelly
00:16:55
I didn't have to do the outrage thing, you know, and I refused to do it. And, you know, I think it's it's important to look for moderates on both sides of the aisle and elect them and the folks that are just throwing bombs across the aisle, getting on, you know, cable news and, you know, saying radical and disturbing things is not healthy for our country. And I've got colleagues in the United States Senate, Republicans, who I work with all the time, who I really like and respect. And there are a good number of them. And, you know, the same with Democrats. And we have to work harder as a nation, you know, to find folks that just want to bridge the gap and work together and accomplish things. We have so much potential as a country. You know, I'd be I'd much rather be born here in the United States of America today than anywhere else on the planet. We're so good at solving problems. You know, lately, our politics have become divided and heated. We can fix this. And I ultimately think we will. But it comes down to folks getting involved and not accepting and not think it's okay. Some of the stuff we see, you know, on cable news. And organizing and working together, both Democrats and Republicans. I mean, I am not a partisan. And, you know, that's.
David Axelrod
00:18:34
That's you vote you vote substantially with your party. It's not, you're a Democrat for a reason.
Mark Kelly
00:18:40
I can't even tell you the statistics about how I vote. I make all my decisions on how I'm going to vote on anything. Based on what is in the best interest of Arizona and the country.
David Axelrod
00:18:51
We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. Arizona is a easier place to as competitive a battleground as it is. It's, you know, the politics that you just recited, which I know you deeply believe are also, this is an easier place to advocate that if you come from a deep blue state or a deep red state, if you come from a deep blue district or a deep red district, you never face a general election in earnest. You're only facing primaries. And in primaries, those loud voices have extra weight.
Mark Kelly
00:19:42
Right. Well, and we we we did this in states to ourselves collectively through gerrymandering of House districts. I mean, why did we make that decision? Right. So, I mean, parties benefit Democrats and Republicans benefit from having these, you know, easy congressional districts to run in. And it drives people to the fringes. And I think we we have to continue to look for ways to make competitive House races the norm across the country, not just like I don't know what the number is right now. When Gabby was serving in the house or there are about 40, you know, out of 435, that doesn't result in a House of Representatives that has an easy time working together.
David Axelrod
00:20:29
States are problematic too. As you know, you only get very few of your colleagues serve in states where a presidential candidate of the other party has has carried that state. So we we live in an era of of great partizanship part of it is cultural. And I want to get back to an issue that sort of is a through line through some of these our discussion here but guns. And you're an interesting guy to talk about this issue because you're the son of two police officers, career military. You've been at war. You know a lot about guns. Gabby had knows a lot about guns and what that had. And I think at one point, a very high rating from the National Rifle Association for the position you took. Now, you've seen the other side of it. How do we stem that tide? We talked about the tide of political violence a little bit, but what about guns? You know, this kid with the AR 15 and, you know, people you know, the young man who who who shot Gabby had a semiautomatic handgun. What do we do about all this?
Mark Kelly
00:21:40
Well, in some places, it's easier to buy an air 15 than it is to, you know, adopt a dog from a shelter. And what do.
David Axelrod
00:21:48
You think about that? Because those weapons were actually designed for war.
Mark Kelly
00:21:52
They were to kill a lot of people in a short period of time.
David Axelrod
00:21:55
And they work.
Mark Kelly
00:21:57
They work very well. And to own one, you know, you should there should be a much higher standard. And if we had universal background checks that would raise the standard, you wouldn't be able to go to a to a gun show and buy an air 15 without a background check. You can do that in a lot of states, including the state of Arizona right now. So that's one obvious change we could make that would reduce the number of AR 15 that get in the hands of people that shouldn't have them.
David Axelrod
00:22:26
This this is a politically fraught question. So I know that when I ask and I'll filter the answer accordingly. But why do people need weapons that were designed for war? Why citizens need those weapons?
Mark Kelly
00:22:39
Well, I think it depends on the person. Some people would, you know, who are supportive of the Second Amendment, like, you know, I am. But folks would make the case that they would need it for protection. The evidence is there isn't a lot of evidence that anyone has ever used an Air 15. There's some cases, a few cases that they've used it to protect themselves or their families.
David Axelrod
00:23:03
Scant evidence of that.
Mark Kelly
00:23:05
Very, well, the numbers are very low. So, you know, that's not a good argument. Some people like to collect, you know, weapons. Some are former members of the military. My belief is that an air 15 or a weapon like it should not be in the hands of people who are not incredibly responsible, who had a background check where there's a higher standard. It's now one of the most popular guns in guns in America.
David Axelrod
00:23:29
It's amazing.
Mark Kelly
00:23:30
If.
David Axelrod
00:23:31
It's a triumph of marketing.
Mark Kelly
00:23:33
It is. And the marketing of that weapon is a problem on its own. And and if you think you know that it's bad here right now in the United States, you know, this could get a lot worse. So, you know, my wife's out there working on this issue every single day. You know, I worked on getting that bipartisan Safer Communities Act across the finish line in the Senate. We got it passed. It's a good step in the right direction. We need universal background checks. We need red flag laws in states, not just what we have with, you know, funding. If a state wants to do a red flag law, we need a national red flag law. And there's other things we can do. And I continue to have these conversations with my colleagues in the Senate, including Republicans, on what more we can do, because, I mean, I have a two year old. She's not she's not two yet a nearly two year old granddaughter. She has had her first lockdown in school already. I mean, well, it's daycare. Have a colleague who's ten year old grandson in Michigan just a couple of weeks ago had a locked down kid, doesn't want to go to school anymore. Yeah, I mean, this.
David Axelrod
00:24:43
Is when I was a kid. We used to do, you know, these drills.
Mark Kelly
00:24:46
Duck and cover.
David Axelrod
00:24:47
Duck and cover.
Mark Kelly
00:24:48
I think I just missed that.
David Axelrod
00:24:49
Yeah, but we never had a nuclear attack. You know, this is now turn on the news, and there's a pretty good chance on any given day, you're going to see something that is chilling for a kid who's having to do these drills. I mean, you know.
Mark Kelly
00:25:04
And these kids are going to, a lot of them will wind up with PTSD from it.
David Axelrod
00:25:10
Yeah. Well, listen, in Chicago, these kids are experiencing it. And by the way, a lot of these young gang members in Chicago, one of the former gang members told me, look, if you don't have a gun that shoots, you know, at least 30 or 50 rounds, you're considered inadequate on the streets these days. And this is what these young kids are living with and their parents are worried about them coming home from school. So to your point before on, you know, some people like to collect these weapons and we do have a Second Amendment and so on, but you can go out and buy a bazooka. You couldn't go out and buy an automatic weapon. You couldn't. So where do you draw the line and why is the line drawn here?
Mark Kelly
00:25:52
I think it's drawn where we are today because of money in politics. If a gun lobby with incredible resources that worked hard to get a bunch of folks elected, you've got, you know, folks on the other side that are trying to get sensible gun legislation passed, that's happened, you know, hundreds and hundreds of sensible bills in dozens of states, you know.
David Axelrod
00:26:18
Which, by the way, you help you're the organization that you helped found, an organization that your wife runs. Giffords has been very instrumental in a lot of these battles.
Mark Kelly
00:26:28
You know, she continues, you know, to focus on this issue because it makes our country stand out in the worst of ways. And for kids to have to go to school and worry about a mass shooter coming through through the door. And I can't tell you how many times I've sat down with parents who kids who where their kids were shot in school and died. And it is just heartbreaking. And it's it's devastating after you've already, you know, parents sitting in my office in the Hart Senate Office Building who are just in a state of shock over what just happened to their child. And we shouldn't have to, you know, live in a country like this. And we need more compromise on this issue. We need and the American people, you know, there's a bunch of common sense solutions to this that most most Americans support.
David Axelrod
00:27:22
Yes. And that's that's the thing that's most maddening is that we're a democracy. A majority of Americans have an opinion on this. And yet it's you know, you had to it's like moving a mountain to pass a you know, it was meaningful but small step forward as you describe it. And, you know, that was a landmark because something happened.
Mark Kelly
00:27:43
First time anything was done in 30 years. And it wasn't easy, but it was bipartisan. Yeah. And it provides a lot more funding for mental health funding for states that want to expand red flag laws. It has a it will affect folks that traffic in firearms and who are in the business of selling firearms with regards to background checks. So to expand the number of background checks. So there's a lot of good things in the legislation, but folks on, you know, recognize that we we have to do more.
David Axelrod
00:28:20
Let me ask you now that you are a politician, whether you plan to be or what.
Mark Kelly
00:28:24
I like to think of myself like that, I feel like I'm still commander of the space shuttle and, you know, like, you know, think about my days flying off of an aircraft carrier.
David Axelrod
00:28:34
I that's another thing I could look up here if I were a better podcaster. The definition of politician. But I think you probably qualify now, whether you like it or not. When, is this issue, it has always been considered a voting issue on the Republican side. Do you think we're reaching a point of critical mass? This is becoming a voting issue that because that's what moves politicians. I mean, I'd love to believe that everybody goes to Congress and they're motivated by nothing but good intentions and the things they want to accomplish. But job number one for most member. Congress is staying in Congress and therefore elections become important. Have we reached a point of critical mass on this issue?
Mark Kelly
00:29:18
Well, I think the American people, especially moms, suburban mothers, want something done on this. And, you know, even in, you know, red states, and that's why we were able to accomplish something with 15 Republicans.
David Axelrod
00:29:35
I thought it was very interesting that Mitch McConnell blessed this effort and voted for it.
Mark Kelly
00:29:39
Voted for it.
David Axelrod
00:29:40
Because I think he recognized this train coming down the tracks, which is the one that you're mentioning here. I just you know, I'm just telling you, it's driving me nuts. I just it's so sad and it's the futility of it. Every time one of these mass shootings happened and every time one of these shootings of young people happen in a city like Chicago, every time a suicide with a gun by a gun happens, which, you know, is more frequent here than anywhere else, because we have 46% of the privately owned weapons in the world.
Mark Kelly
00:30:14
And we have 4% of the population. Yeah. Yes, that's a problem.
David Axelrod
00:30:19
All right. Well, we're not going to solve this. During this hour, we were definitely. But I feel better talking about it. Well, I should ask you one thing related to both these questions, which is radicalization in the military. You as a career military officer, a must be sense of. You're on the Armed Services Committee. I mean, it's not a gigantic percentage, but it's an inordinate percentage. And and among veterans, we saw it at the January 6th insurrection and so on. What should be done? Well, first of all, why is it. And secondly, what should be done about it?
Mark Kelly
00:30:58
I spent 25 years in the United States Navy. I mean, I love being in the Navy and I wish I could be in the Navy some days instead of on Capitol Hill. You know, flying off of a ship. We've got the best navy in the world, the best military, even today. I mean, we have the most effective, professional, capable military force this planet has ever seen. You know, I mean, today and we're going to continue I'm going to work on the Armed Services Committee. You know, that's one of my top priorities, is to make sure that if we ever get in a fight with one of our adversaries, that we are as prepared as possible to win and we would win those today. I think, you know, in any organization the size of the United States military, you know, we're going to have folks on the fringe and those other things you mentioned, you know, media being one social media. You know, there's an opportunity to, you know, pull people off in a direction and down a rabbit hole. And that happens in any organization.
David Axelrod
00:32:05
You're also drawing disproportionately from populations that may be more susceptible to it. I don't mean conservative, but.
Mark Kelly
00:32:14
You know, I mean, we've got a lot of stuff to fix in this country. And one is we need a bigger population of folks that can serve in the military. When you consider the folks that can pass the physical fitness test, pass the medical exam and can pass the reading test, essentially that's what it is. The ASVAB that to get in the military, that number has shrunk and over the years. Yeah, we've got a recruiting problem right now, especially in the enlisted ranks. We do not want to go to, you know, mandatory service. That's one of the reasons why we are so effective. We have a all volunteer force.
David Axelrod
00:32:51
You know, strategies, though, to fight radicalization.
Mark Kelly
00:32:54
Yeah. I mean, you know, Secretary Austin is focused on this. You know, some folks will say it's a huge number of people. I don't believe that. I think it's small numbers. And DOD has a strategy to figure out who these folks are and then address it.
David Axelrod
00:33:14
Let me turn to some other topics. Because of your role as an astronaut, you're very focused on science, technology and so on. You've talked about looking at the atmosphere from space and climate and so on. One of the things that I was reading this morning was a piece that from a few days ago about parents. This will be related, trust me, parents who are now resistant to their kids, to mandates for childhood vaccinations, for childhood, you know, things that we've been treating with vaccinations forever. And that's why we have low infection rates of these things. A third of parents now say they don't believe in these mandates, and it just goes to a larger thing, how we react to climate, that climate challenged the the the competition between politics and science. When science properly, properly deployed, has such a capacity to save us, to save lives, to save the planet, to make the future more secure. Do you worry about that?
Mark Kelly
00:34:25
Yeah, I worry when people don't believe in science. You know, because science doesn't care when people don't believe in science. It's going to happen anyway. And to not vaccinate your children is a big mistake. You know, we have saved I mean, one of the reasons why, you know, over, you know, decades that people live longer. One of the biggest reasons is vaccinations. And you stop vaccinating, you know, children. They're going to die at a younger age and then, you know, spreads through disease, will spread through a population and takes us back in the wrong direction. And to have folks out there that are respected, that are advising their parents not to get vaccinated is a big problem.
David Axelrod
00:35:10
Yeah. What about science generally? You know, we talk about climate science, for example, which for the longest time now, I think people are conceding as we deal with the extreme weather and so on that, yeah, maybe this is real, but or, you know, and there's a hostility among various constituencies, some for good reason, because the changes that are required fall disproportionately on them. If you if you're from the energy sector or so on.
Mark Kelly
00:35:39
On the Senate today, I you know, I can't think of a single individual that doesn't believe that our planet is changing because of greenhouse gases, because of what we put into the atmosphere. I've seen this planet change over a decade. I flew my first spaceflight in 2001 and my fourth in 2011. And I remember on my first mission getting out of my seat on the first day, looking out the window, getting a really good view of the earth for the first time and looking straight down. And we're in over South America, and I could see this big copper color river just winding through the jungle. It's like no other river on the planet. It's really impressive. A decade later, on my fourth flight. Same spot. What do you think you notice? It's not the river. You notice that deforestation, massive deforestation, where it all that carbon go up in the atmosphere. You know, we don't do something about this. Well, you. You now spend a lot of time in Arizona. By the end of this century, Phenix, if we. If we stay on the business as usual plan, Phenix will have twice as many days, over 100 degrees as it does today. Think about that for a second. Mean, we got a lot of days. Over 100 here. It is hard. So the thing is, first of all, folks, you know, listening to this podcast believe in science. I believe in science. I'm one of only three engineers in the United States Senate. We do science really well, peer reviewed, you know, studies. You know, our country is really good at this. We don't get it right 100% of the time. Right. And it's you you know, you got a hypothesis and you do your experiment and you make conclusions. You know, sometimes those will be modified. For the most part, we get it right. And it's important that we listen to experts on this.
David Axelrod
00:37:36
We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back with more of The Axe Files. And now back to the show. Let me raise a related issue around which is important around here, which is water. And I know you're very, very active on this issue. The Colorado River supplies much of Arizona's water. California, Nevada.
Mark Kelly
00:38:10
It's about 35, 38% here in Arizona.
David Axelrod
00:38:13
And it's drying up. And this is a huge concern. But, you know, you read the story the other day about this. 88% of this water is for agricultural use. And obviously we need food. It's important and so on. But my question is this, first of all, is that equitable, the distribution of water? And are there ways in which science can be helpful here in developing more sophisticated irrigation systems? Are there ways also in which the market should allow be allowed to work? Like should we be deploying three and a half gallons to make one almond? You know, aren't there some hard questions that we have?
Mark Kelly
00:38:57
I mean, like anything is about choices. You said 88% in the state of Arizona, it's about 80% goes to agriculture. Remember that? That agriculture here in the state of Arizona, a lot of it's in Yuma County. If you're eating green, leafy vegetables in the winter, in the spring, anywhere in North America, it probably came from this one county, Yuma County in Arizona. Agriculture is so important for the state, for the southwest. One of the reasons is with the with the climate we have, we can grow a lot of food. It does take water. In the Inflation Reduction Act. I was able to add $4 billion for this for this water crisis. We're now deploying that money, you know, very effectively, and we're going to be able to conserve water. We're also going to do system conservation, which is drip irrigation lining canals. Other technology, you talk about science helping here. This is the science that is going to be going to help. It's going to be a shared sacrifice. A lot of the deal on this because of who gets how much water. The reality of the situation is we've said there's 15 million acre feet of water in the Colorado River every year, and we've been using more water than there is. So we've got to be able to live within our means. We can't let Lake Mead get in power pole and then dead pool. We've got a little time. The water managers of these states.
David Axelrod
00:40:25
Are you confident that we're going to get there?
Mark Kelly
00:40:26
Yeah. Yeah, I think so. That in the bipartisan infrastructure bill, I worked to get $1,000,000,000 for Western water infrastructure in there. We're going to get there. And I want to just give a shout out to, you know, the head of reclamation and the water managers like Tom Bukowski here in Arizona who have worked really, really hard at this.
David Axelrod
00:40:45
The other issue, obviously, that Arizona feels disproportionately is the immigration issue. We've just we're now coming through this. You were you were not supportive of moving away from this Title 42, the change in in policy that discontinued the Trump era border policies. But we're now there. Mm hmm. The administration says it's gone better than expected. What is your sense of where we are and how do we solve this problem, which obviously requires a great deal of resources and the and the willingness to deal with it on a grand scale, not just, you know, piece by piece scale.
Mark Kelly
00:41:34
Well, Title 42 is implemented as a public health emergency provision. The public health emergency expanded, right? Yeah. And, you know, my my goal at the administration was to make sure that they came up with a plan that they could operationalize.
David Axelrod
00:41:51
Are you satisfied with the plan?
Mark Kelly
00:41:53
Well, Border Patrol, CBP, the nonprofits in southern Arizona, not speaking for the other states, have done a really good job with coordination and communications with the with homeland security. The the sector chiefs, Chief McGuirk and Chief Modlin have done a very good job here over the last couple of months. They've worked together really well and they have managed this. Now, having said that, we still have like really high numbers. This falls on, especially mayors, Mayor Nickels and us. So the mayors in southern Arizona, in Yuma, Douglas, Nogales, they've got a really tough job. And this is unfair for people that live in these border communities. Border Patrol needs, you know, funding more Border Patrol agents. We need more technology at the border. In some places, we need barriers. And then the thing you allude to, it's comprehensive immigration reform could be incredibly helpful to our economy. It's the right thing to do.
David Axelrod
00:43:03
Maybe essential to our economy.
Mark Kelly
00:43:05
Possibly. Yep. And it's the right thing to do. We have 800,000 Dreamers in our country that really just grow up here.
David Axelrod
00:43:11
So given the nature of Congress today, what are the odds of this? You know, in 2013, comprehensive immigration reform passed by a wide margin in the Senate and never got a vote in the House.
Mark Kelly
00:43:25
And last Congress. Towards the end, we were getting close and we're going to continue to work on it. It is one of the most frustrating issues, especially when you consider that in the state of Arizona, I meet these young people all the time. You know, they came here and they're two years old and have to live with this uncertainty in their lives that they one day could could be deported. And it's really heartbreaking.
David Axelrod
00:43:57
And they're contributing here.
Mark Kelly
00:43:58
And they're, they're as American as my own two kids.
David Axelrod
00:44:01
Well, I mean, look, as a matter of economics, we don't we're we're growing at a rate in which if we don't have an infusion of immigrants, we're going to pay an economic price for that. We're and we're educating people from around the world and then sending them back to compete against us. This is an insane policy.
Mark Kelly
00:44:24
I agree. That's why we need a. That's why we call it comprehensive. Right. I mean, I talked to farmers and ranchers all the time. They need more work, bigger workforce. They've got limits on H-2A visas. They would like to have more. You know, the folks in Yuma County, especially, I mean, that workforce comes across the border every day and then and then and then goes back. But if you're if you're trying to run a hotel somewhere, you're often getting this workforce from overseas, even in the areas of, you know, in health care with nurses. I mean, we could really benefit by expanding the number of visas for nurses to work the nursing homes and hospitals.
David Axelrod
00:45:00
Which is a critical shortage. Direct care workers, nursing home workers. Huge problem for the country.
Mark Kelly
00:45:07
And I'll tell you what we don't want to turn into, you know, some countries that have declining populations. Mm hmm. We we need to grow our economy. If you're a CEO in the country today, I have not met a CEO. That is an cabinet having a hard time finding the workforce. Mm hmm. I mean, it could be. I'll be going over to Boeing later today. Mm hmm. Last time I was there, I was talking to the CEO of Boeing, where they build the Apache helicopter. Mm hmm. Finest attack helicopter in the world. They had an opportunity about a year ago to fly it. Brand new one. Had the new helicopter smell. A lot of fun to fly the Apache for me as a former test pilot. I don't have a lot of time in helicopters, but talking to the CEO about just, you know, how these are really good paying jobs, building Apache helicopters, you know, how is it finding the workforce? And she said it's really, really hard. And I said to her, I said, yeah, you probably have a hard time getting people coming out of the military that are airplane mechanics to build these Apaches. And she said, no, you don't understand. Will take anybody. I mean, we'll take somebody at a high school if they'll come here and if they can, you know, just, you know, pass a drug test and they want the job. And these are good paying jobs. So, you know, it's it's we've got to be, you know, thinking forward. The other challenge we have today is like in semiconductor chips.
David Axelrod
00:46:32
Yeah.
Mark Kelly
00:46:32
You know, we passed, you know, my legislation to expand semiconductor manufacturing. You know, here in the country. A lot of that is going to come here to Arizona. Tens of thousands of good paying jobs. What we need and what we're working on is, you know, having the pipeline through community colleges and universities and even like maybe straight out of high school and into some two week program that then qualifies you to interview for TSMC, to Intel, to get these great jobs that do not require a four year degree.
David Axelrod
00:47:04
Real quick, Ukraine, you were you've been over there. Your impression of where this war is at? Where are we and how much time do they have?
Mark Kelly
00:47:15
I was there about a month ago. I met with Zelinski for over an hour, but then even more time was with his national security team, The deputy prime minister. I will say President Zelensky is very grateful for the weapons that we've provided and the assistance.
David Axelrod
00:47:32
Should we be providing more? What about the F-16?
Mark Kelly
00:47:35
I'll get to that in a second. But, you know, he's also frustrated. I mean, this is existential for them. I mean, the day that while I was in the meeting with him, he brings up that one of the Ukrainian P.O.W.s, you know, captured by the Russians had been decapitated and we hadn't heard about it yet. I mean, just the war crimes that Putin has committed is we we haven't seen this in anything at this scale in decades. And my goal is that he and others are held accountable for this and that he loses. We're at a critical point here. Right. I mean, there's going to be a counteroffensive with all the details. I don't know exactly when that's going to be and where and how this is going to be conducted. We've provided them with, you know, a tremendous amount of military capacity, you know, weapons systems that that military in Ukraine has never had before. Artillery systems, high marks, you know. You know, other pages. Yeah. Patriots weapons that they can put on their airplanes. And then we get to the question of F-16s. You know, I spent a lot of my career, you know, flying airplanes like the F-16. I've flown the F-16 a number of times. I used to fly the F-18. I was test pilot. I flew in combat. It's not a howitzer. It's not even a tank. It's going to be hard for them to maintain them. I think we need to look for the path to train, not only the aircrews, but the maintainers to get them a modern air force. Just, you know, flying a squadron of F-16s in the Ukraine and turning them over doesn't work.
David Axelrod
00:49:22
How does this end?
Mark Kelly
00:49:23
How does this war end? I mean, I think ultimately it's going to end in some sort of negotiation. And and my my hope is, you know, Putin makes a decision to that. He can't win this thing. And it's in his best interests and his country's best interests, though I don't really think he cares so much about the country, really cares about himself, that it's in his best interest to to stop this. He's murdering, you know, women and children every single day.
David Axelrod
00:49:51
No, plainly. But the negotiation also entails two parties.
Mark Kelly
00:49:56
It does.
David Axelrod
00:49:57
And that's hard for Zelensky after the butchery that you describe is what's important in the next few months, getting as much territory is back as possible in order to give him leverage in that negotiation?
Mark Kelly
00:50:09
Yeah, I think so. And, you know, right now the Ukrainians are doing well. They're getting, you know, new tanks. They're going to be deploying the M1 here soon. They're getting longer range surface to surface missiles from the UK. This is going to help. They're also suffering battle damage on a lot of the weapons that we've given them. We're trying to help them maintain and repair these systems. I saw some stuff over there that, you know, you know, that's very unique to this, to this fight with how we've been able to deploy technology and, you know, helping them at the frontline repair, you know, a Howitzer like you would normally do. And, you know, previously you would have to send us stuff back to depot level kind of maintenance.
David Axelrod
00:50:58
They're doing it in the field.
Mark Kelly
00:50:59
They're doing it in the field. So they're rather innovative.
David Axelrod
00:51:01
Just to put a button on this. When do you think this negotiation will come?
Mark Kelly
00:51:05
I can't give you a date, you know. My hope is-
David Axelrod
00:51:11
But this offensive is critical.
Mark Kelly
00:51:12
Yes. It is. It is very critical. And if this doesn't go well for Ukraine, you know, my fear is that Putin and his cronies can just continue to throw more mass at this meaning people and stuff. They've got a bigger population, they've got a bigger army. They can conscript a lot of folks. They don't seem to care about the guy on the ground, you know, And that's why, you know, you'll see days where the Russian military on a Saturday lost a thousand soldiers. I don't think Putin cares, you know, and he can continue to.
David Axelrod
00:51:48
Yeah, I mean. Yeah.
Mark Kelly
00:51:49
And when you have, you know, a bigger country and a bigger population, often in these kind of conflicts, mass wins. But not always. Not always. I mean, the history of our country proves that. Mm hmm. You know, just from the founding of the United States of America, it proves that the smaller force that's smarter and, you know, willing to innovate on the battlefield can win not only battles, but can win the war.
David Axelrod
00:52:15
I have to ask an indelicate question. You know, Gabby Giffords left Congress because she felt like she couldn't give it her all. And there are all these questions about your colleague, Senator Feinstein, just revealed that it wasn't just shingles that she had, but encephalitis as a result of it. I know that decorum probably requires you to say. That she should continue as long as she feels she can continue. But is that right? Is that fair? I mean, it's you're not going to expel her. So it's the reality. But shouldn't this be a concern if people are serving who can't who can't fulfill their responsibility?
Mark Kelly
00:52:58
Well, I think it's important to recognize that she returned when my wife was shot. She was in a similar situation. And Gabby was in the hospital for six months. And I felt it was important for her to make her decision. And she did. We got to October. November. It was just before Thanksgiving. I remember sitting on our couch. I was still living in Texas. We hadn't moved back to Arizona yet. And she was still really struggling with her aphasia. And we're watching TV. And she asked me to mute the TV. And she just said that she would like to resign. And it was totally her decision. And it was hard for her. I mean, she loved serving in the United States Congress. I'm sure Dianne Feinstein loved being in the Senate. That's why she's been there so long. You know, I think this is a decision that she will have to make with the folks around her, people that she's close to. And at some point, I'm sure she, like anybody who serves in Congress, at some point, they make a decision that it's time to move on.
David Axelrod
00:54:12
I'm not going to ask you about the Arizona Senate race coming up because.
Mark Kelly
00:54:15
Thank you.
David Axelrod
00:54:16
Yeah, well, I don't want to make you dance unnecessarily here because I know you. You know, this is a delicate situation with senators Sinema. And but I do want to ask you about you. You mentioned earlier that the that there are days that you wish that you you long for the for the military and I'm sure the ordered orderliness of that life is quite a contrast with some of the nuances of politics.
Mark Kelly
00:54:47
Very different. It is about as different as you could get.
David Axelrod
00:54:50
But you know, your name comes up from time to time as someone who in the future could actually run for president. And I know I listen to you here and you sound very plausible in that regard. Is that something that you would consider at some point in your life? Well, maybe I should ask the more artful interviewers question. Would you rule that out?
Mark Kelly
00:55:12
Well, first of all, let me ask you this. Mm hmm. Do you know how I got here? Like, how did I wind up, like, even running for the United States Senate?
David Axelrod
00:55:21
We covered that in detail, and.
Mark Kelly
00:55:23
Not really. So, I mean, it goes back to the election in 2018. You know, I was Gabby and I were at this get out the vote effort in right at the Van Buren here in Phoenix. Music venue listening to the Gin Blossoms. And this woman comes up to me. She was not much older than my eldest daughter. She says she just and she's standing next to me because I'm watching pointed at the stage and she says, hey, my son has Down syndrome and I'm terrified that he's going to lose his health insurance. Would you please consider running for the United States Senate? And I told her I would, meaning I would consider it. And that's when I started really seriously taking a look at this. I don't rule anything out, but when I hear that, I think, okay, we've got a war in Europe right now. We've got a crisis on the Colorado River. We've got challenges at our border trying to get all this infrastructure money, you know, adequately deployed. Often this time of year in Arizona, we start to have wildfires that we've got to deal with. Senator Romney, I've been working on that. We've got problem after problem. We've got we've got to try. We've got to avoid absolutely have to avoid default. So I'm focused on doing this job right now. Like I was in the Navy flying off of an aircraft carrier, you know, flying into Iraq on combat missions. I'm very focused on what I'm doing then, you know, flying the space shuttle. You know, I had to do that my last mission while Gabby was in the hospital. I'm rendezvousing with the space station while she's getting brain surgery. So I.
David Axelrod
00:56:59
Was that when you decided, this is it?
Mark Kelly
00:57:01
Well, I just knew because of the severity of her injury, I wasn't going to go and train in Russia to go be the commander of the space station. Mm hmm. Which I would have considered doing. I also thought about maybe just trying to stay in the Navy and continue, see if I can go, you know, maybe take that next step and get back into the operational part of the Navy. I love being in the Navy, so I'm always focused on the job that I'm doing today.
David Axelrod
00:57:27
Mm hmm. Okay. I thought that was an artful answer, but I I so appreciate your time. It's good to be with you and good luck with all of those challenges that you just listed. People want to see progress.
Mark Kelly
00:57:40
Thank you Axe. We, you know, we there is no country in the world better at solving hard problems than the United States. I'm convinced of it. I mean, we're we're the folks that sent people to the moon in the 1960s. We can solve these problems. We can make a brighter future for our kids and our grandkids. We can tackle climate change the water here on the Colorado River.
David Axelrod
00:58:03
If the politics will allow us.
Mark Kelly
00:58:06
They will. I'm convinced.
David Axelrod
00:58:08
All right. I feel better. I'm going to go off with a bounce in my step today.
Mark Kelly
00:58:13
All right. Hey, thank you for having me on.
David Axelrod
00:58:14
Great to be with you.
Mark Kelly
00:58:15
And good to be back on your show.
David Axelrod
00:58:16
Thank you. Thank you.
Intro
00:58:20
Thank you for listening to The Axe Files brought to you by the University of Chicago Institute of Politics and CNN Audio. The executive producer of the show is Miriam Fender Annenberg. The show is also produced by Jeff Fox and Hannah Grace McDonald. And special thanks to our partners at CNN for more programing from the IOP. Visit politics.uchicago.edu.